EP2 - What Would You Like To See

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Grim G Grim G's picture
Reshy wrote:I'd like to see a

Reshy wrote:
I'd like to see a section on what it'd be like to grow up in the transhuman society. Seems like it's something that never really got answered in any of the books (or discussed).

I find it hard to believe EP is a very kid-friendly setting.
o11o1 o11o1's picture
Grim G wrote:Reshy wrote:I'd

Grim G wrote:
Reshy wrote:
I'd like to see a section on what it'd be like to grow up in the transhuman society. Seems like it's something that never really got answered in any of the books (or discussed).

I find it hard to believe EP is a very kid-friendly setting.

It seems like it'd be very much like it's a post war reality to grow up in. Everything is about survival and learning how to rebuild.

A slight smell of ions....

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
o11o1 wrote:Grim G wrote

o11o1 wrote:
Grim G wrote:
Reshy wrote:
I'd like to see a section on what it'd be like to grow up in the transhuman society. Seems like it's something that never really got answered in any of the books (or discussed).

I find it hard to believe EP is a very kid-friendly setting.

It seems like it'd be very much like it's a post war reality to grow up in. Everything is about survival and learning how to rebuild.

I hears Mars ain't the kind of place to raise a kid. In fact it's cold as hell. And there's noone there to raise them if you did.

Reshy Reshy's picture
Everyone was a kid at some

Everyone was a kid at some point (Barring AGIs, and even then they have to learn typically) within Eclipse Phase, so what is it like with all of these transhuman technologies being available?

Not saying you should play a kid, I'm asking how would someone grow up in the Eclipse Phase setting, especially since most would be pre-fall.

DoomSmith DoomSmith's picture
I'm a little disappointed,

Unfortunately, my favorite EP character might be a little hard to play in the new system.

I used to run a Combat-Jovian Flat. Before the Fall, she was a Terran, but when shit hit the fan she actually survived the TITAN threat in the body she was born in and escaped. Still wary of cyberghosts, she was never implanted with a cortical stack or even mesh implants. Throughout the game, she had to do everything on the mesh via an ecto alone.

However, though physically weak, she was able to survive game-sessions because of the immense amounts of credits I could get from leftover CP. That meant Gear. She got all the best goodies from the get-go to increase her durability to combat-levels. My winning combo was a Battlesuit + an Invisibility cloak + a Sniper Rifle + Bamf Ammo Blueprints. The layers of defense were real. Enemies had to find her (made hard via high Infiltration), get to her in one piece (made hard via High Kinetic Weapons skill), Catch her (made hard via high Freerunning/Freefall) then actually beat her in a fully-equipped Battlesuit (made hard via High Fray). Combined, it seemed to keep most things off her, which was important since death was permanent for that character.

As far as I can tell, starting gear is much harder to get through pure CP now, which might unfortunately be the downfall of this character without a kindly GM and some homebrew innovation.

This message was sponsored by the GLORIOUS JOVIAN REPUBLIC!(TM)

Reshy Reshy's picture
I will say, I would like to

I will say, I would like to see some actual benefits to playing a biomorph (or pod) over a Synth, as it seems like the default assumption is that Synths are all gravy (All upsides with no meaningful downsides). The original game sure listed a lot of freebies Synths got, but no real frailties of relying on a synthetic system.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
DoomSmith wrote:Unfortunately

DoomSmith wrote:
Unfortunately, my favorite EP character might be a little hard to play in the new system.

I used to run a Combat-Jovian Flat. Before the Fall, she was a Terran, but when shit hit the fan she actually survived the TITAN threat in the body she was born in and escaped. Still wary of cyberghosts, she was never implanted with a cortical stack or even mesh implants. Throughout the game, she had to do everything on the mesh via an ecto alone.

However, though physically weak, she was able to survive game-sessions because of the immense amounts of credits I could get from leftover CP. That meant Gear. She got all the best goodies from the get-go to increase her durability to combat-levels. My winning combo was a Battlesuit + an Invisibility cloak + a Sniper Rifle + Bamf Ammo Blueprints. The layers of defense were real. Enemies had to find her (made hard via high Infiltration), get to her in one piece (made hard via High Kinetic Weapons skill), Catch her (made hard via high Freerunning/Freefall) then actually beat her in a fully-equipped Battlesuit (made hard via High Fray). Combined, it seemed to keep most things off her, which was important since death was permanent for that character.

As far as I can tell, starting gear is much harder to get through pure CP now, which might unfortunately be the downfall of this character without a kindly GM and some homebrew innovation.

You do still have -some- ability to get good gear using your unspent Morph Points though, and it should still turn into Flex if not.

Seems worth a shot, you just might not always have a full batlesuit to play with.

A slight smell of ions....

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Part of the problem here is

Part of the problem here is that the gear included in your morph gets a 75% discount compared to extra gear that you tack onto your MP budget.

Once you acquire the blueprints for your high end items, you should be ok in the new system, though. Resources 4 is probably a good trait for that character. It makes even restricted items pretty easy to acquire.

Flats are arguably stronger in 2E, since they don't have the low aptitude caps. If you're still ok doing implants, you can get decent pools as well.

One advantage biomorphs have is that they get more armor than the synths. The battlesuit exoskeleton / carapace combination has 8 more kinetic armor than the synth heavy frame / heavy combat armor. Personally, I'd like to see them use the same armor, though.

Edit: I think it's likely that armor is supposed to have penalties if it exceeds SOM, in which case the battlesuit/carapace combination is a poor choice. I still would like synths to be able to freely wear other armor, since they may be able to pass as human, so there's no in-game reason for them not to be able to wear human armor.

Reshy Reshy's picture
ubik2 wrote:One advantage

ubik2 wrote:
One advantage biomorphs have is that they get more armor than the synths. The battlesuit exoskeleton / carapace combination has 8 more kinetic armor than the synth heavy frame / heavy combat armor. Personally, I'd like to see them use the same armor, though.

What do you mean use the same armor?

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Allow sythmorphs to wear the

Allow sythmorphs to wear the biomorph armor without layering penalties.

For biomorphs, the base armor is the worn armor, and they can add to that with things like dermal armor. For synthmorphs, the base armor is their frame, and they can add to that with synthmorph armor. Since you can't combine two base armors, and synths can't get rid of their frame, they can't wear biomorph armor without layering penalties.

Note that the add on version for synths is way better than the add on version for biomorphs, but the base version for synths is way worse than the base version for biomorphs. For the highest combination, the biomorphs come out significantly ahead.

If you're fielding soldiers, I'd still expect you to use the weaker synthmorphs, since there are so many logistics benefits. If you've got a security force, I'd expect pods, which let them integrate better with society, while still being cheap and tough. If you've got special forces, they would probably end up as biomorphs, for the better stats.

If you're actually doing warlike things, you probably just use a ton of cheap bots, though.

Edit for clarity: A biomorph will use a battlesuit exoskeleton (base) + carapace armor (add on). The synth will have a heavy frame (base) + synthmorph armor (add on). The base is 10 for synth, vs. 25 for the biomorph base. The add on is 14 for the synth vs. 7 for the biomorph. The gap is smaller for energy, but kinetic seems to be the standard.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
The fact a supposed

The fact a supposed "battlesuit exoskeleton" is allowed to add on an extra carapace armor might be the actual bug in the armor rules.

A slight smell of ions....

Reshy Reshy's picture
So basically, make biomorphs irrelevant?

ubik2 wrote:
Allow sythmorphs to wear the biomorph armor without layering penalties.

For biomorphs, the base armor is the worn armor, and they can add to that with things like dermal armor. For synthmorphs, the base armor is their frame, and they can add to that with synthmorph armor. Since you can't combine two base armors, and synths can't get rid of their frame, they can't wear biomorph armor without layering penalties.

Note that the add on version for synths is way better than the add on version for biomorphs, but the base version for synths is way worse than the base version for biomorphs. For the highest combination, the biomorphs come out significantly ahead.

If you're fielding soldiers, I'd still expect you to use the weaker synthmorphs, since there are so many logistics benefits. If you've got a security force, I'd expect pods, which let them integrate better with society, while still being cheap and tough. If you've got special forces, they would probably end up as biomorphs, for the better stats.

If you're actually doing warlike things, you probably just use a ton of cheap bots, though.

Edit for clarity: A biomorph will use a battlesuit exoskeleton (base) + carapace armor (add on). The synth will have a heavy frame (base) + synthmorph armor (add on). The base is 10 for synth, vs. 25 for the biomorph base. The add on is 14 for the synth vs. 7 for the biomorph. The gap is smaller for energy, but kinetic seems to be the standard.

In 1e Symthmorphs (as I recall) could wear armor so long as they didn't have any additional armor mods installed. A Synthmorph's armor mod increased their base armor, and was easily equivalent to the heaviest armors that a Biomorph could have worn (sans exoskeleton). Biomorphs didn't really get the benefit of being able to stack armor as well as a Synth could in 1e, leading them to being pretty lackluster in general (from my experience).

When it comes to 2e, things are a little more fair over all, maybe slightly advantaged to the Biomorph now that Synths cannot wear armors without penalties.

Biomorph with Carapace 6/7, Combat Armor 12/16, Full Helmet 3/3, Second Skin 2/3 for a total of 23/29, assuming morph comes with Carapace Armor and no mods.

Synthmorph with Heavy Frame 12/10, Heavy Combat Armor 16/14 for a total of 28/24, assuming morph is a Heavy Framed Synth with no mods (Also assuming a synth cannot use Second Skin).

Both are effectively equal with an average of 26 armor for both types.

Assuming minimum baselines for built-in armor (Assuming the Biomorph even has built-in armor): 2/3 vs 6/4, making their adjusted totals 19/25 (17/22 with nothing) vs 22/18. An average of 22 (19.5) for Biomorphs vs 20 for Light-framed Synthmorphs (Also assuming a synth cannot use Second Skin).

So biomorphs have a slight advantage when it comes to protecting lower quality morphs, but once you eliminate the lowest common denominator, they're about equal.

If anything, it makes me glad that Biomorphs are actually slightly advantaged at certain things, rather than just being straight-up inferior in a majority of cases, like they are in 1e.

Of course, factoring in Exoskeletons is an entirely different kettle of fish, as Exoskeletons are effectively Synthmorphs that the Biomorph sits inside of.

With Exoskeletons you have 33/35 armor for Biomorphs before mods, but at that point the Biomorph is effectively in a vehicle.

Those are fairly comparable armor levels.

o11o1 wrote:
The fact a supposed "battlesuit exoskeleton" is allowed to add on an extra carapace armor might be the actual bug in the armor rules.

I'd imagine it's not supposed to be a bug, but if it's removed then that'd pretty badly bug me as Biomorphs are seriously lacking in actual reasons to play them over Synths.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
But why should the biomorph advantage be better armor?

I understand that we want to make sure biomorphs have a good reason to play them.

Being covered in indestructible metal seems like it *should* be the Synthmorphs advantage, however. That just strikes me as intrinsically sensical. Now, if biomorphs have some kind of standard advantage, it should probably be in soft advantages or in the shapes of their pools.

A slight smell of ions....

135mya 135mya's picture
???

Do yall not play the social game at all? Because synths are hella on the ass end of it. You can't play a troll at a gala, you can't expect even a Galatea to go over well in non-synth circles.

Maudova Maudova's picture
135mya wrote:Do yall not play

135mya wrote:
Do yall not play the social game at all? Because synths are hella on the ass end of it. You can't play a troll at a gala, you can't expect even a Galatea to go over well in non-synth circles.

Currently, there aren't any mechanically backed rules involving synthmorphs having disadvantages, this includes both social and sleeving. I am imagining that as the Devs continue to release further playtest supplements there will be something that causes social stigma with a synth and when the sleeving rules are out, that whole exotic morphology trait will have more of an impact. With those release's you'll see a difference in bio vs synth IMHO.

~Alpha Fork Initialized.
P.S. I often post from my phone as I travel extensively for work. Please forgive typos and grammar issues.

Reshy Reshy's picture
o11o1 wrote:I understand that

o11o1 wrote:
I understand that we want to make sure biomorphs have a good reason to play them.

Being covered in indestructible metal seems like it *should* be the Synthmorphs advantage, however. That just strikes me as intrinsically sensical. Now, if biomorphs have some kind of standard advantage, it should probably be in soft advantages or in the shapes of their pools.

Not every synth could, would, or should be covered in armored plates. Most would be only as durable as necessary for their life, kind of like how the average person doesn't wear armored clothing all the time, the average Synth probably shouldn't necessary be covered in "indestructible" metal. Synths, I'd imagine, are "as strong as they need to be" a combat-grade synth will be combat-grade, a civilian-grade synth will be civilian-grade. A government may not desire allowing access to synths that are for all intents and purposes immune to bullets or other methods of containment should one go rogue.

I'd honestly imagine that most common synths (at least "light" framed ones) would probably be made of some kind of plastic and/or aluminum. It's relatively resilient, and is also fairly cheap. It also doesn't you know... rust, which would cut down on upkeep costs whilst still being reasonably resilient. It'd also not be super bullet-proof if someone decides to have an existential crisis and decide that nihilism is the correct solution and start trying to murder people.

Maudova wrote:
135mya wrote:
Do yall not play the social game at all? Because synths are hella on the ass end of it. You can't play a troll at a gala, you can't expect even a Galatea to go over well in non-synth circles.

Currently, there aren't any mechanically backed rules involving synthmorphs having disadvantages, this includes both social and sleeving. I am imagining that as the Devs continue to release further playtest supplements there will be something that causes social stigma with a synth and when the sleeving rules are out, that whole exotic morphology trait will have more of an impact. With those release's you'll see a difference in bio vs synth IMHO.

The game seems to gloss over things like the fact that while Synths don't need to eat that they need power, they're vulnerable to corrosion and grit in the gears, optical fibers used in synthmorph data communication are fragile, they require more maintenance than biomorphs and cannot naturally heal (except without magical nanomachines, son), are more difficult to integrate into for non AGIs, they're far easier to hack or manipulate using back-doors and monitoring programs, and of course they can't truly feel emotions or the like (just simulacra). Ideally Synths should be for two purposes, when you need a body fast and don't plan to live in it long-term, and when you need a highly specialized body that wouldn't be feasible using biotech (Like a space ship or a tank is easier to make out a of a synth than a biomorph or pod).

Or at least these would make for some semi-sensible drawbacks, were they actually represented in the game. The game glosses or forgets most of these drawbacks in practice, even the few that are reflected are usually very easily removed as drawbacks with very cheap augmentations.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Most of these things are in

Most of these things are in 2E already.

Inherent Flaws is the appropriate morph trait (included in the Case) for being prone to breakdowns.

The section on Healing and Repair lets biomorphs heal naturally (which synthmorphs can't).

Exotic Morphology handles the integration and alienation penalty, though these tests haven't been detailed.

Presumably, the integration test is a SOM aptitude check and the alienation test is an INT aptitude check. I'm not sure what the alienation test will be. Having a -30 on those tests is a real concern, since it causes stress (the long term hit point damage).

Hacking cyberbrains hasn't been detailed (and hacking has only been lightly covered), but it is a big enough issue that many players won't play synths.

I'm not aware of any difference in emotion between the two. I'm sure many Jovians don't consider synth emotions real, but I don't think there's any factual basis for that (unless, of course, you define emotions as the chemical component, rather than the effect on the mind state).

The penalty to social interactions isn't automatically included anymore. This can be modeled off of the Black Mark negative trait, but unfortunately, that's an ego trait, rather than a morph trait. It's probably appropriate to use the Black Mark trait for an AGI, though.
Edit: These penalties are mentioned in Actions and Combat, but they're a GM determined property (not everyone will respond the same way).

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
I don't think a flat

I don't think a flat reduction to social stuff should be inherent to synth morphs, but it SHOULD be something the guide strongly encourages DMs to do when in habitats that look down on synths, which is most inner city places.

Reshy Reshy's picture
ubik2 wrote:Most of these

ubik2 wrote:
The section on Healing and Repair lets biomorphs heal naturally (which synthmorphs can't).

I know that in 1e you could give Medichines to Synthmorphs, which allowed them to heal as quickly as a biomorph with Medichines as well as being dirt cheap. Effectively making the downside non-existent.

ubik2 wrote:
Hacking cyberbrains hasn't been detailed (and hacking has only been lightly covered), but it is a big enough issue that many players won't play synths.

You could always get around this by turning off your Mesh connection, iirc.

ubik2 wrote:
I'm not aware of any difference in emotion between the two. I'm sure many Jovians don't consider synth emotions real, but I don't think there's any factual basis for that (unless, of course, you define emotions as the chemical component, rather than the effect on the mind state).

Well, as far as I recall XP systems are effectively considered "good enough" to be a replacement for senses in their entirety, I don't recall if there was any actual drawback from these synthetic senses. All I know is that AGIs can get a drawback called "Overwhelmed by Emotions" which seems to imply that Synths have more difficulty in this regard, but again not actually reflected within the game.

ubik2 wrote:
The penalty to social interactions isn't automatically included anymore. This can be modeled off of the Black Mark negative trait, but unfortunately, that's an ego trait, rather than a morph trait. It's probably appropriate to use the Black Mark trait for an AGI, though.
Edit: These penalties are mentioned in Actions and Combat, but they're a GM determined property (not everyone will respond the same way).

Still, what of power costs, maintenance concerns, etc. that'd come with Synths? Synths need power in place of food and breathable air, but again while Biomorphs have to worry about suffocation and starvation power seems to have become a forgotten concern for Synths (at least in 1e).

Same goes for maintenance which doesn't seem to be a concern either, despite the fact that those wacky biomorphs like breathing in corrosive O2 and that the Synth may find itself in an environment with water or grit that can muck with their systems. They cannot self-heal so things like Erosion could be issues as well.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Biomorphs don't need bathroom breaks...

There is a balancing mechanic for Biomorphs/Synths; the Pool System.

Biomorphs have (mostly) better pools across the board, and so will present a much better ‘success rate’ in practice than an equivalent Synth, though the Synth may make fewer Tests through their immunities and broader capabilities.
Moreover, only a few Synths have a Moxie pool at all and those that do are small, so Biomorphs will generally come out ahead in all Social situations.

Reshy wrote:
Not every synth could, would, or should be covered in armored plates. Most would be only as durable as necessary for their life, kind of like how the average person doesn't wear armored clothing all the time, the average Synth probably shouldn't necessary be covered in "indestructible" metal.

----

I'd honestly imagine that most common synths (at least "light" framed ones) would probably be made of some kind of plastic and/or aluminum.

----

The game seems to gloss over things like the fact that while Synths don't need to eat that they need power, they're vulnerable to corrosion and grit in the gears, optical fibers used in synthmorph data communication are fragile, they require more maintenance than biomorphs and cannot naturally heal (except without magical nanomachines, son), are more difficult to integrate into for non AGIs, they're far easier to hack or manipulate using back-doors and monitoring programs, and of course they can't truly feel emotions or the like (just simulacra).

Most of these considerations are covered by the general information in the V1 gear section; even basic Synths can be assumed to be self cleaning with basic maintenance capabilities, largely formed out of insulating materials like ceramics or carbon fibre (without which they're walking talking electrical hazards), and are powered by a nuclear battery with a lifespan of several years.
If combined with a superconducting battery, the latter also provides an in-universe explanation for the Recharge requirement – you need to wait for the capacitors to refill.

I’m pretty confident of these because they’re necessary for Synths to be plausible at all – they simply need to be self-sufficient and durable enough to withstand all the bumps and scrapes of everyday life.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Reshy Reshy's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:Most

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Most of these considerations are covered by the general information in the V1 gear section; even basic Synths can be assumed to be self cleaning with basic maintenance capabilities, largely formed out of insulating materials like ceramics or carbon fibre (without which they're walking talking electrical hazards), and are powered by a nuclear battery with a lifespan of several years.
If combined with a superconducting battery, the latter also provides an in-universe explanation for the Recharge requirement – you need to wait for the capacitors to refill.

I’m pretty confident of these because they’re necessary for Synths to be plausible at all – they simply need to be self-sufficient and durable enough to withstand all the bumps and scrapes of everyday life.

What? Nuclear batteries on every synthmorph design? How is that even possible, let alone feasible? Nuclear materials aren't very common, and we're supposed to buy that they're in by default on every synthmorph? That sounds like a terrible idea for a variety of reasons.

1. Resource cost, most nuclear materials are really rare, and thus pricey. For example, NASA has only the ability to make three more nuclear batteries like the one that runs curiosity and that's it. Including these, standard, in every synthmorph would be extremely costly for no good justified reason.

2. Radiation hazard, nuclear batteries are usually used to power things that need to be up 100% of the time without fail. They are not, for instance, used to power your cellphone or car. There's a reason for that (Aside from cost) and that's that it's also a radiation hazard, and the size of Synthmorphs makes the ability to shield the battery more difficult, and thus a walking talking hazard for anyone who's affected by radiation (like any non-synth). You also run the risk of someone using a synthmorph battery to fashion a dirty bomb, which could be really bad.

3. Inefficiency, if most synthmorphs are expected to be at or near a hab, like where food is, there's also access to power which to recharge their (standard) batteries. This is a far more efficient use of resources than strapping a nuclear device to synthmorphs, because it allows you to have a proper nuclear (or fusion) reactor.

4. Standard batteries exist and are fairly good, operating 100-500 hours. They also don't have a risk of being used as a bomb, irradiating a hab, or being exceedingly costly.

So unless you're a gatecrasher expecting to be away from civilization for months to years, I don't see any good justified reason to use a nuclear battery. Much less in every synthmorph ever. Synths don't need that, and it adds unnecessary costs and risks that aren't even all that beneficial. Sure a synth could run for years without a refuel, but if they spend most of their time in civilization, they could just use a recharging station instead.

Also self-cleaning basic maintenance I can understand, self contained within every synthmorph I can understand a bit less. Synthmorphs cannot eat, for instance, so where do they get the new mass to rebuild parts that have worn away? They'd need to get it from somewhere, and unlike a biomorph or pod can't just take in material without some kind of assistance. Again, most synths exist in habitats, where access to things like that wouldn't be as much of an issue, but if things go wrong or you're roughing it, then you have to actually deal with these problems.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I'm not completely sold on

I'm not completely sold on Eclipse Phase 2nd edition. I like some of the new things like revising aptitudes and the skill list. However, losing speed and aptitude bonuses from morphs seems to cut into the transhuman feeling. I may find myself playing with a mix of rules from 1st edition, 2nd, and a few house rules.

I also would have liked to have more material to test and provide feedback on.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I don't think synthmorphs

I don't think synthmorphs would use nuclear batteries either. Batteries in Eclipse Phase are much better than today's variety. I think that your average synthmorph could last 3 days to a whole week just living life and working at their job. Adding nuclear batteries to the mix would be overkill; morphs would need a good reason to have them.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
DivineWrath wrote:I'm not

DivineWrath wrote:
I'm not completely sold on Eclipse Phase 2nd edition. I like some of the new things like revising aptitudes and the skill list. However, losing speed and aptitude bonuses from morphs seems to cut into the transhuman feeling. I may find myself playing with a mix of rules from 1st edition, 2nd, and a few house rules.

I also would have liked to have more material to test and provide feedback on.

One of the things you can spend pool points on is a 24 hour bonus to an attribute. As for speed, extra movement speed I'd beok wih. Extra actions in combat? its the sort of thing that's so amazingly powerful that the entire meta game of combat warps into contests to get the most extra actions. With a vigor pool, you can still act more, but it's somewhat contained so that the better morphs are better without having the weaker guys totally unable to compete.

A slight smell of ions....

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
I've got to agree o11o1. I

I've got to agree o11o1. I like speed conceptually as an "always on" advantage, but it heavily distorted the way combat worked to the point where you were willing to give up pretty much anything for extra actions and extra speed. Pools are much better from a gameplay standpoint, and EP is a game in the end.

Reshy Reshy's picture
Still not totally sold on

Still not totally sold on pools either, as it does kind of lessen the value of a high-quality morph. Which in a game about transhumanism, the difference between the highest of the high and the lowest of the low should be wider than ever. Difference between the haves and have nots. It's definitely a simplification, and I'm still not sure it's a good thing.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
Also, keep in mind that with

Also, keep in mind that with high end weapons, such as a medium pistol set to full auto fire, you can wipe through more than half of a targets health in one combat turn. Most firefights are over in about three exchanges anyway.

Then you can take a short rest and get back all the vigor you spent to go twice as fast as everyone else for long enough to saddle them all with wound penalties.

A slight smell of ions....

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
Hell, unless the wound rules

Hell, unless the wound rules have changed a lot (I don't remember them changing but haven't looked at those 2e rules in a little while) you can knock people out of combat before they can act with many weapons. Taking two wounds at once means there's a significant chance that they're going down without a really high SOM.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Breaking the No Discussion rule once again :(

I’m currently experimenting with allowing multiple actions, but doing so means only using a fraction of your skill rating (two actions at ½, three at 1/3 and so on). I’ll post something if it turns out to work.

Reshy wrote:
What? Nuclear batteries on every synthmorph design? How is that even possible, let alone feasible? Nuclear materials aren't very common, and we're supposed to buy that they're in by default on every synthmorph?

In EP Nuclear batteries are cheap and common; all beam- and rail- weapons have one by default, and they exist as a distinct item with a cost of [Low], and are small enough to fit in the palm of your hand.
That's why I think they'd be a standard Synth component, with the possible exceptions of Griefers and maybe Cases, though the latter is probably where old, half expended N-Batteries go to die.
Spares would probably have a very small one insufficient for active usage, but large enough to counteract any power losses due to long term storage.

For the record, I'd only argue for Nuclear Batteries for Synthmorphs, not Robots in general. Synthmorphs operate under a different set of design considerations due to their intended purpose as Artificial Bodies, rather than tools or pieces of equipment.
This implies a certain level of reliability and autonomy as opposed to enhanced capabilities.

Regarding in-universe justification; not all nuclear material is equal – the isotopes best suited for batteries probably aren't going to be those useful for a reactor, particularly Alpha or Beta emitters.
They'd also have lower half-lives than Real World N-Batteries, meaning they can be lighter and smaller.
Together, this makes them much simpler to use and vastly reduces potential health risks.
It also makes them suboptimal for Dirty Bombs, which themselves are less useful given the commonality of Vacuum Suits, the existence of Healing Vats and a substantial Synth population.

Reshy wrote:
Also self-cleaning basic maintenance I can understand, self contained within every synthmorph I can understand a bit less. Synthmorphs cannot eat, for instance, so where do they get the new mass to rebuild parts that have worn away? They'd need to get it from somewhere, and unlike a biomorph or pod can't just take in material without some kind of assistance. Again, most synths exist in habitats, where access to things like that wouldn't be as much of an issue, but if things go wrong or you're roughing it, then you have to actually deal with these problems.

The key consideration is that pretty much all the effects which lead due a device or structure eventually failing operate exponentially, with initial damage making the subject component more vulnerable going forward.
The flip-side is that if you can repair or counteract any effects very quickly, then you only need to expend a fraction of the resources you would otherwise.

With smartmaterials and Nanomachines this is ridiculously easy. You only need tiny amounts to have gear systems which can expel particulates, or have joints which alter their properties to account for applied forces.
Functionally, you’re designing your systems to respond to use through changes in geometry rather than loss of material, and then applying energy to correct those changes. This has it’s limits, but material loss should only be an issue after ‘years’ of use.

This would only apply to simple wear from standard use, not from abnormal circumstances which would cause actual damage, but that’s covered by the damage system and lack of innate healing anyway.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Haroudo Xavier Haroudo Xavier's picture
I´m going to playtest de

Editing out my comment until actual playtesting in a few days. System seems to be cumbersome, but it may be just a wrong impression.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Breaking news - Stuff Is Broken.

Update on the 'Multiple Actions at a percentage idea' - it doesn't work.

On one hand the penalty becomes negligible when Bonuses come into play, on the other it overlaps too much with the pools.
The possibility was only ever useful a couple of times anyway, so it basically boiled town to free vigour points.

One thing that did come out is a potential balancing mechanic for using multiple weapons - you can't get bonuses to your roll (aiming, full auto ect...) or Call Shots when using more than one weapon.
This made the increased damage option more favoured, but to a smaller extent than expected - the damage bump from using extra weapons is high enough that diminishing returns kick in, making ammo conservation more viable.

I also made a small discovery regarding the 33/66 rule; it turns out describing the roll mechanics as "Basic, Good and Excellent Success" to a new player made comprehension much easier than "Success, and also you can get bonuses from good rolls".

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Mein fractal digits!

One thing I’d like to see since reading the lore entries from Rimward: actual applicability for Fractal Digits.

The Rimward lore, particularily the investigstion in saturns computronium moon (I’m too lazy to look up the name right now) where much is made of the lethality of fractal-digit weapons.

Mostly suggested because, as a ware Fractal Digits are mostly just gimmicks with inefficient or otherwise useless applications in 1st Ed.

Daemon-Dynamics Projects:
2nd Edition Morph Creation Rules


ubik2 ubik2's picture
Into the White is the short

Into the White is the short story, and Iapetus is the moon. The EP1 stats are 1d10+4, AP -8, but I'm not sure this is the same as the fractal digits available to the players.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Something that came up

Something that came up recently is multi-weapon fighting with articulated weapon mounts. Normally, multi-weapon fighting has penalties, but someone made the case that there is no mention of penalties for using weapon weapon mounts. A simple "Using multiple articulated weapon mounts suffers the same penalties as using multiple normal weapons." would clear things up.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Since they got rid of the

Since they got rid of the ambidexterity trait (now included in basic biomods), the off-hand weapon penalty will need a new description.
I suspect it will be turned into some sort of multiple attack penalty for making multiple attacks in one action instead. I suppose it's also possible that everyone gets two attacks for free, but that seems less likely.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
ubik2 wrote:Since they got

ubik2 wrote:
Since they got rid of the ambidexterity trait (now included in basic biomods), the off-hand weapon penalty will need a new description.
I suspect it will be turned into some sort of multiple attack penalty for making multiple attacks in one action instead. I suppose it's also possible that everyone gets two attacks for free, but that seems less likely.

That change is that "Dominant Limb" is an optional negative trait.

A slight smell of ions....

Automata Automata's picture
I'd like to see something

I'd like to see something showing a few ideas on what the setting could look like in a year or so. The lore makes out that the technology is evolving really quickly, and a few short little 'Maybe X, or Y, or Z' pieces and a handful of 'one year later' examples of tech would be enough for GM's to figure out what things might reasonably look like as things go on. Some ideas on what might change in transitional economies, a few political possibilities, etc could be really cool.

If there already is something like this could someone please point me to it?

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
“Eraser protocol: active”

Drawing from the Subverted Mind negative trait, I would like to see a module based on the idea of Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde - under certain circumstances the module activates and provides express bonuses (in my current imagining, adding a second Interest package) to the characters skills. While the module is active this ‘secondary personality’ is in control, and changes the characters Motivations for the time it is active.

Afterwards the system would revert to the original pesonality, enforcing an awareness block to prevent discovery, even from the person who has the module/trait.

Mostly just a spin on Subverted Mind that would make for interesting situations, especially in a more espionage filled game - where you have to worry if you yourself aren’t a counter-agent, what with all those hour+ gaps in your memory over the past few days.

Daemon-Dynamics Projects:
2nd Edition Morph Creation Rules


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