Deleting Speed

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Skimble Skimble's picture
Deleting Speed

Hello all.

What is generally considered to be the best mechanic for keeping some method of enhancing speed of action without actually providing multiple combat actions per turn?

There's obviously the ability to reduce timeframes out of combat but I'd love to strike some kind of compromise in combat that prevents the slowdown and exclusion brought about by having some people act multiple times whereas others only have one action.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Large bonuses to initiative.

Large bonuses to initiative. The Eclipse Phase combat system is one where whoever goes first has a massive advantage. Hurting someone is easy, and if you can get a few wounds on someone before they can do the same to you, you will basically win the fight. Combine it with a task action time reduction schema for out of combat uses, and you should be good.

An example; Characters with higher speed always go before people with lower speed. You still roll initiative, but you are only competing with people within your speed group. You divide the time period of task actions by your speed (speed two halves task actions, speed three third task actions).

Hey... that actually sounds like it would work... it would also give the non-combat monkeys reason to have speed.

Or extra moxie that can only be used on actions that being fast would help with. Moxie is a strong mechanic, giving extra uses of it will be similarly useful.

-

Skimble Skimble's picture
That makes sense

That's the conclusion I'd also drawn, though I was thinking each point of speed added +1 to initiative; doing within speed brackets is even better. I already run it that having speed reduces the timeframe on things - it makes infomorphs scarily good hackers when the base timeframe for them to hack a system is 2.5 minutes reduced further by MoS.

The extra moxie idea is interesting as well.

Another possibility I've considered is being more generous with quick actions for those with speed > 1. This is even logical within the system really; a fully automatic gun can't really shoot any faster just because you're jacked up and running hot.

nick012000 nick012000's picture
Give everyone in the Party

Give everyone in the Party Neurochem 1 for free. That way, they've all got extra actions.

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Skimble Skimble's picture
That's _a_ solution, but it's

That's _a_ solution, but it's sort of going the wrong way. I'd rather nobody had extra actions.

hhexo hhexo's picture
A scheduling system?

I once toyed with replacing the "conventional" methods of handling speed and initiative with a schedule-based system. I will explain.

One big problem of systems where you can get multiple actions per turn is that the difference between one and two actions is massive. You can be doubly effective with just a neurachem implant. I believe the difference should be more gradual, like, say, "you are 20% more efficient".

So let's move away from the concept of "turn" entirely, and define a system where the basic human acts every 20 "ticks". Initiative rolls are used to initially stagger people by a few ticks. If there are 5 actors in the scene, they roll Initiative and determine an order, then they schedule their actions in the pipeline 1 tick apart, in order, starting from tick 0.
Then, depending on your speed levels, your next action is scheduled after a different number of ticks. For example, if you have Neurachem 1 you take an action every 16 ticks (20% reduction), and Neurachem 2 means you take an action every 12 ticks (40% reduction).

When I tested this, I quite liked how it panned out, and also the possible implications and extensions (you could then define actions that take a number of ticks to finish, you could have actions that you start and then you cannot interrupt for a while even if something bad happens... you could start your action while an opponent is still performing theirs, and therefore decide to oppose it before it's done...).

However, this system has a big defect: it requires a lot of mental arithmetic, mostly modulo operations. You have to remember when you go. Say that you started third in the Initiative order, and you have Neurachem 1. Then you go at every tick count which, modulo 16, equals 2. That means 2, 18, 34, and so on. (somebody might have started acting earlier, at 0, but maybe they are a basic human, so they will go at 0, 20, 40, and so on)
The GM calls out numbers in sequence and you are responsible for saying "me! I'm acting!".

Now, with the aid of a computer (like when playing on the internet with Skype and some visualization tools), that will work nicely. But when playing live, I find it introduces too much overhead.
Anyway, I thought it might be interesting to post this for discussion.

[edit: minor clarifications]

Skimble Skimble's picture
An interesting way of

An interesting way of tackling it. You're right that the biggest problem with Speed is that it's very chunky rather than fine-grained. You're either twice as fast, three times as fast, or four times as fast which has a massive impact on the game. I don't necessarily object to that for out of combat speeding up purposes but it's a pain in the arse in combat.

It seems this way of handling it is a lot like the Exalted second edition system, and it does occur to me that perhaps there's an easier way of doing this by using a similar system.

Say the default time between actions is 5 ticks (that's Exalted's default) and you still reduce your speed by 20%, that would mean someone with speed 4 acts every tick and someone with speed 1 would go every 5 ticks. That's already an improvement on the original system because you won't end up in a situation where _only_ people with speed 4 are acting in the fourth combat phase. Maybe we could expand that out slightly to 10 ticks between turns just to get a bigger range of values. If we did that then someone with speed 1 goes every 8 ticks, someone with speed 2 goes every 6 ticks, someone with speed 3 goes every 4 ticks and someone with speed 4 goes every 2 ticks. You could use a 'battle wheel' similarly to Exalted and it would be fairly easy to track when the next actions were due to occur. Hmm. I'd have to work out a method for defining the starting initiative and making sure there's a good spread. Exalted suffered from a problem where everyone ended up being smashed together on tick 6 if one person got a ridiculously high initiative.

Skimble Skimble's picture
If Initiative varies between

If Initiative varies between 2 and 20 (I think it must, it's 1d10 plus a derived number from 1-10 isn't it?) then we could say that people first act on 20-their initiative roll?

hhexo hhexo's picture
Initiative can be minmaxed

In one of the adventure PDFs (Chain Reaction, I believe), I have seen a character with Initiative 1d10 + 12, which can potentially get to 22, which is greater than 20, so a straight subtraction formula doesn't always work (you can always imagine more Advantages and bonuses and stuff that will raise the roll above the artificial threshold you subtract from).

I would prefer the "stagger characters by 1 tick in Initiative order" approach, because:
- It requires less arithmetic; and
- Combined with the scheduling system, it gives an immediate advantage to the high-speed characters, which they should get even if they lose the initiative roll.

In my scheduling system the Initiative roll isn't modified by speed. So you can get a normal-speed character who takes their first action before a high-speed character... but then the high-speed character takes their second action before the normal-speed character can take theirs... and then they take one action each until the 20% or 40% efficiency boost kicks in again and the high-speed character takes another bonus action.
I think that's the most balanced situation, because as a high-speed character you know you have an average advantage, and as a normal-speed character you know that you can still do something if you're lucky with the Initiative roll. But this is just my opinion.

Also, you have to balance it carefully with the number of ticks between actions. The problem is that if you have very many characters acting in the combat (say, 13 characters), you might end up in a situation where the last character in Initiative order hasn't even taken their first action when the fastest character takes their second one!
Of course combat situations with that many characters should be avoided, or handled differently...

I'm not too familiar with the Exalted system but from what Skimble is describing it should be quite similar.

godmoney godmoney's picture
damage reducing initiative?

how would you include the reduction in initiative from damage? or would you?

I would like a more "rolling" initiative count progression.

Semper Ubi Sub Ubi!?!

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
If you're lazy you could just

If you're lazy you could just say that each extra speed action in combat is delegated to the equivalent of half an aim action and half a full defense dodge action (each normally giving +30 in the game system).

So each speed increase gives a flat +15 aiming bonus and +15 fray bonus.

EDIT: And thats it, no extra actual attack rolls.

EDIT2: This implies you could use freerunning instead of fray if you had a speed of 2 if you wished. I'm okay with that (and SOM instead of REF is an possible optimization advantage route for high speed characters)

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I think people make this too

I think people make this too complex.

Instead of making a whole new set of rules based on the original mechanics wouldn't it be better to just adjust the structure of the Action Turn?

For example; Double or Triple the amount of time in the Action Turn and give everyone 2 or 3 Initiative passes per Turn. Give people with Speed adjustments 1 more Action in the expanded turn.

Turn based play is what makes SPD unwieldy for the GM. It's primary function *should* be to determine when you shake up the initiative order and re-roll. Unfortunately no one bothered to write any tactical rules around that except for wound modifiers. So, effectively, it's primary function is to determine how often characters with secondary actions get to use them.

I'd also mention that IRL it's really not that difficult to be, (physically) twice as fast as an average person at any specific task but that increase in efficiency that we're all aware of is a result of training more than a physical or biological advantage. I believe that's what breaks suspension of disbelief in people who are unhappy with the SPD mechanics. So if you're a hardcore simulationist you probably want to start by linking speed to skill level in some way.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
I'm a pretty hardcore

I'm a pretty hardcore simulationist and I think genius (reasoning, musical, kinesthetic, or otherwise) is far more about inborn aptitude than skill.

Boot camp is like 13 weeks. Sniper school is 5 weeks.

My wife pulled an Olympic level of trap shooting very quickly - we're talking after maybe 500 shells fired total over a period of about 5 weeks.

Eclipse Phase doesn't model that kind of thing remotely realistically. Most "skill based" RPGs don't for that matter.

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Decivre Decivre's picture
NewtonPulsifer wrote:Eclipse

NewtonPulsifer wrote:
Eclipse Phase doesn't model that kind of thing remotely realistically. Most "skill based" RPGs don't for that matter.

I can't name a single game I've ever come across in my entire history of gaming that has come even remotely close to realistic with regards to talent progression.

The fact is that people don't gain much in the way of skill in a lifetime. We probably advance any given talent to our maximum potential over a decade or so, then spend the rest of our lives maintaining that level of talent. And once age hits, we simply try to keep those skills from degrading. I can't think of many games that portray this in any way.

Virtually every game I can think of... whether class-based, skill-based, or somewhere in between, have some sort of skill progression that makes skill mastery significant and potent, something that accumulates over a character's lifetime. Sometimes this skill gain is linear, and sometime this skill gain is damn near exponential. Either case, it certainly isn't realistic.

So I wouldn't hold Eclipse Phase any more or less guilty of this than any other game. It sits beside Shadowrun with regards to character progression structure, with a bit more emphasis on the potential of skill gain.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Obviously I can't speak to

Obviously I can't speak to intellectual genius (ironically I have to think about it every time I try to spell that word.)

I'm not being argumentative...
well, I am about this point. Which sniper school is 5 weeks? I know the US Marine's is 8 weeks followed by advance courses and a lead course if you go on... (also, out of curiosity, you are from the US right, Newton?)

Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is that from my perspective EP does a fair job of modeling both those situations you mention.

In the case of basic vs. sniper school--in EP terms--a Marine spends 13 weeks learning all of the dozen active and knowledge skills that are needed to be a Marine then spends 8 weeks getting a specialization to the Kinetics skill in the M40 and the M82. As well as learning the stealth skill with a camouflage specialization.

In the case of your wife being an olympic level shooter I was going to make a case about high initial aptitude with skill traits and specializations and what not but it occurred to me that your Lady has MAD Moxie. Sounds to me like you better just be walkin the line bro. Cause it sounds like she never looses when she doesn't want to. :D
I don't think that trap shooting is a very good example of what the speed mechanic represents, since it really only requires the use of half of one compelx action.

When I say that training is important to speed I have in mind complex activities like Action Pistol shooting, any combat sport, football (or rugby), and basketball. Activities that require; Observation, Perception, Planning, Initiation of a complex set of moves, and Reaction based on results at a very fast pace. People with more training will be faster than people with less and natural ability really only makes a difference between equally skilled competitors at the high and low ends of the spectrum.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Decivre wrote:The fact is

Decivre wrote:
The fact is that people don't gain much in the way of skill in a lifetime. We probably advance any given talent to our maximum potential over a decade or so, then spend the rest of our lives maintaining that level of talent.

Heh. Maybe that's cause most of us are NPC's.
Do we reach our maximum potential because it is our *maximum* or do we just stop doing things that earn experience points?

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:

OneTrikPony wrote:

I'm not being argumentative...
well, I am about this point. Which sniper school is 5 weeks? I know the US Marine's is 8 weeks followed by advance courses and a lead course if you go on...

US Army. You're right that the Marines are more rigorous.
OneTrikPony wrote:

(also, out of curiosity, you are from the US right, Newton?)

Yup

OneTrikpony wrote:

Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is that from my perspective EP does a fair job of modeling both those situations you mention.

In the case of basic vs. sniper school--in EP terms--a Marine spends 13 weeks learning all of the dozen active and knowledge skills that are needed to be a Marine then spends 8 weeks getting a specialization to the Kinetics skill in the M40 and the M82. As well as learning the stealth skill with a camouflage specialization.

I definitely wasn't trying to pick on Eclipse Phase in particular, which is way better than many alternatives.

OneTrikPony wrote:

In the case of your wife being an olympic level shooter I was going to make a case about high initial aptitude with skill traits and specializations and what not but it occurred to me that your Lady has MAD Moxie. Sounds to me like you better just be walkin the line bro. Cause it sounds like she never looses when she doesn't want to. :D

Admittedly, she's kind of a freak of nature. For example, she pulled less than a second less than the days best time when driving on a go-kart course for the first time.

The day's best time was set by an employee of 10+ years that drives that track multiple times every day they're there.

And you know that trick where you drop a dollar and the other person tries to catch it? Looks easy but nobody can do it?

She can catch it.

And she's also a great dancer and can hoola hoop like mad, but is the kind of person who will *always* hit the corner of the bed with her shin if it is possible.

OneTrikPony wrote:

I don't think that trap shooting is a very good example of what the speed mechanic represents, since it really only requires the use of half of one compelx action.

Very fair point.

OneTrikPony wrote:

When I say that training is important to speed I have in mind complex activities like Action Pistol shooting, any combat sport, football (or rugby), and basketball. Activities that require; Observation, Perception, Planning, Initiation of a complex set of moves, and Reaction based on results at a very fast pace. People with more training will be faster than people with less and natural ability really only makes a difference between equally skilled competitors at the high and low ends of the spectrum.

True, and once again my wife probably isn't a fair data point :)

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Baalbamoth Baalbamoth's picture
Can you send us pics?

ToGtFO

Jus kidding, don't send the she-ninja after me.

Anyhoo, I like simple over complex, bonus init and moxi along with shorter task actions sounds fine to me. Could somebody write that as a rational houserule?

"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Speed is unbalanced.

Speed is unbalanced. Therefore it is bad and should be removed.

You might object. Say that reality isn't balanced. That knives aren't balanced to guns, which aren't balanced to assault rifles - why then should Speed be balanced?

Well, perhaps no balance is needed in the setting. Real life certainly isn't balanced, and many games allow characters of different levels of power to be played. Games with levels, like Dungeons & Dragons, certainly do; a 5th-level character and a 1st-level character have different levels of power, and are both playable.

But in terms of being a game, things like "levels" or "starting CP" are supposed to provide a framework, and boundaries, for power levels. To generalize, nobody wants to play the BMX Bandit when other people get to play the Angel Summoner, and from the same pool of character generation points, you don't want a novice player to end up making Captain Metropolis when another player makes Dr Manhattan.

In Dungeons & Dragons, Level One characters aren't meant to play alongside Level Twenty characters. In Exalted, Solars aren't mean to play alongside Dragon-Blooded. A friend of mine, who I'm mostly copying all I'm writing here from, put it thusly:

"In any Metal Gear game, souped-up cyborg PCs like Raiden would presumably be kept separate, in character creation, from PCs like Solid Snake, or else have their augmentations made so costly that only high-powered PCs could play them, giving non-cyborgs a colossal number of points to sink into social interaction, mental skills, or owning a nuclear mecha."

Speed is a particularly bad type of unbalance, therefore it should be removed. It's the kind of unbalance that, unless you're an experienced player, can suddenly come out of nowhere and make you realize that you thought you were making Angel Summoner, but you were actually making the BMX Bandit. The reason for this is simple and twofold:

  • There is not a sidebar in the game that says "Speed if the dominant stat in combat, so if you want to fight against anyone competent, you need to max out Speed."
  • Morphs that are expected to be in combat do not have Speed augmentations. I'm thinking specifically of the Olympian and Ghost, which are the kind of morphs that can be expected to enter into combat on a regular basis, be it because you're a bodyguard, or because your infiltration went awry.

And, actually, to add a third and fourth reason:

  • The Fury and Reaper don't come default with Speed 4, despite being top-of-the-line combat morphs.
  • TITANs and Exurgents don't have Speed 4.

A real and pressing issue with the way Speed works with regards to its low cost, high versatility, and low importance is that you can expect a player to decide to build a powerful soldier, and find that her Fury is being shot to a Swiss cheese by an drug-addicted asynch hacker sleeved in an flat, because the asynch player in the flat took an addiction to Kick and Unconscious Lead for flavour reasons.

And, from a meta-social perspective, a character with Speed 2 will take up twice as much time at the table as a character with Speed 1. A character with Speed 4 may take as much time to resolve in combat as the entire rest of the party.

Ah, but the "party face" or the "party scientist" may take time to resolve during social or scientific situations, you might object! And if social situations and science were given the same mechanical and narrative weight that combat was, this would be a good argument.

Sadly, the mechanics for social interaction and science, in Eclipse Phase, are rather limited. Combat is given an entire chapter, and there page upon page of fluff and stats for the tools of deliberately murdering people to death in increasingly more creative ways. The mechanics for combat are more complex and more comprehensive, and for narrative reasons, climaxes tend to be combat, not science or talking to people. To be pretentious and quote Clausewitz, "War is the continuation of politics by other means"; combat is what happens when you meet someone who can't be talked out of doing the things you don't want them to - and TITANs and Exurgents certainly can't be talked out of eating your face.

Combat dominates, and, accordingly, combat mechanics dominate. Hacking is a Task Action, so it doesn't benefit from extra Speed. Trying to convince someone to do something is also usually a Task Action - so again, it won't benefit from extra Speed. And there's no stat for giving you extra hacking actions or Networking actions or building raygun actions - and usually you don't even need them, since these kinds of tests usually aren't as time-limited as Shooting People in the Face Before They Can Shoot You in the Face tends to be.

The quickest fix I can imagine is to make Speed 3 the default, and increase the maximum Speed to 6, or some other numbers that reduce the impact of Speed. This way, Neurachem, Kick and Reflex Boosters still have their fluff of making you act faster, without being so powerful they warp the game around themselves, like a giant black hole of One True Build-ness.

Baalbamoth wrote:
ToGtFO

I'm sure all the women on the board feel included by such comments. I know I do.

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I've learned that it's rude

I've learned that it's rude to argue the premise of; "I wan't to house rule X" threads. There's a lot that I don't agree with in the above posts so I'll just mention this.

Speed increase is not the only "Force Multiplier" that characters have access to in game. Forking and Controlling drones are also extremely effective force multipliers. In fact they're even more effective since they not only increase a players Actions Per Turn but they also increase his pool of Durability, Movement and Lucidity. They are not capped at 4 the way speed bonus is and they present much greater problems of table time monopoly. They are also inexpensive compared to Speed Boosting gear.

There are multiple paths to grant a player the ability to be involved in multiple phases of an action turn *Without* violating a character concept. The Junky Async example in the post above illustrates this for me.

Currently the default situation in the game is that all player characters act in 3 Phases of an Action Turn because all player characters have a muse.

Setting violations aside; Any "Solution" should consider these things.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

bblonski bblonski's picture
How about this?

What about making your speed stat the number of d10s you roll for initiative? So if I have 3 speed and initiative 7, I roll (3d10+7). Then you go through an action phase like normal and subtract 10 from everyone's score. If anyone has a positive initiative left, then get another phase. Repeat until nobody has a positive initiative.

For example, say I roll (3d10+7) for 22. I would get my first phase with initiative 22, then a second phase with initiative 12, then a final phase with initiative 2. Another character with speed 1 rolls (1d10+6) for 15. They would get 2 phases (15 and 5).

This makes it so characters with higher speed aren't guaranteed extra phases, and character with only speed 1 can possibly get multiple phases if they are lucky. This helps smooth out the curve between high and low speed characters and the math is pretty easy. This is similar to the system that was used in Shadowrun 3rd edition which I thought worked pretty well.

MARC C MARC C's picture
Continuous Clock Principle :

Continuous Clock Principle :
- Car Wars (SJ Games) has an excellent system to account for differences is speed. A time chart that shows on the top the speed of the cars (which can be replaced by initiative) and the left column shows seconds. Cars activate (in order of speed) when an «X» marks the speed column and the second. I seem to remember the chart is divided in 60 phases. So at the end of one minute start back at the top of the chart. Voilà !

« Language is a virus from outer space » William S. Burroughs

anth anth's picture
Deleting Speed

I can see the argument for reducing the effect of speed but I'm not too concerned - it isn't like EP uses a class system and restricts the implants available to each. The current system is easy to use and I wouldn't want to lose that.

NewtonPulsifer wrote:
Boot camp is like 13 weeks

I don't think recruits are meant to be fully trained by the end of that, just ready for further training.

Baalbamoth wrote:
ToGtFO

Grow up or go away.
King Shere King Shere's picture
A chess Stop clock?

Most others seem to consider that time-rationing (putting a limit of time to the thinking & descriptions with Stop clocks) is the best.

A good "combat turn-system" praxis (in my opinion) is one that also "detains" information. Sometimes its tedious though.

To give an example: Initiative positioning and activation.
Players and NPC with slower imitative describe their actions first & after all involved have described their actions -Its the Higher initative that have their actions activate first and GM explain the resulting consequences.

If one still uses multi actions in the system , the Multi action capable individuals will need to have a initiative roll "position" for each of their actions. I vaguely remember a system that "rewarded" certain single actions (during a turn) a much higher initiative "bonus". Like actions that are delayed triggered responses (For example: waits to shoot at the first thing that "tries" to enters the room from the door)



"To find fault is easy; to do better may be difficult."
Plutarch

godmoney godmoney's picture
yes, thank you

bblonski wrote:
What about making your speed stat the number of d10s you roll for initiative? So if I have 3 speed and initiative 7, I roll (3d10+7). Then you go through an action phase like normal and subtract 10 from everyone's score. If anyone has a positive initiative left, then get another phase. Repeat until nobody has a positive initiative.

I knew there was something out there I had run across before that would work pretty well for physical actions.

but what about spending a point of moxie?

Semper Ubi Sub Ubi!?!

bblonski bblonski's picture
I don't think it'd be any different

godmoney wrote:
but what about spending a point of moxie?

I don't think it'd be any different. According to the rules as written, characters that spend a point of moxie goes first regardless of their initiative roll. If multiple characters spend moxie they go in order of their initiative, then all other characters go in order of their initiative. They go in the same order next phase unless a wound penalty changed the order. Phases still exist, the only real difference is that you use the -10 trick to keep track of the number of phases a character gets to act which is variable instead of fixed.

godmoney godmoney's picture
so...

let's say you roll 3d10+7 for 22 and i roll 1d10+5 for 9.
i decide to spend a point of moxie to go first. does that make my initiative 23 now?
where would that put my initiative for the rest of the round if we are taking 10 from our initiative?

Semper Ubi Sub Ubi!?!

bblonski bblonski's picture
godmoney wrote:let's say you

godmoney wrote:
let's say you roll 3d10+7 for 22 and i roll 1d10+5 for 9.
i decide to spend a point of moxie to go first. does that make my initiative 23 now?
where would that put my initiative for the rest of the round if we are taking 10 from our initiative?

Initiative wouldn't change, just like it doesn't change normally. You simply have to call out characters using moxie before the rest of the characters. For example, normally the order would be 22, 9, but with moxie it would be *9, 22 (* moxie point spent). If the other player also spends a point of moxie it would then be back to *22, *9. If there was a third player with init 17 who did not spend moxie, it would be *22, *9, 17. The second phase would look like *12, 7, and the third phase would be *2.