EP2 - What Would You Like To See

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saithorthepyro saithorthepyro's picture
Timeline and Earth Demographics

This is a rather late post, and my apologies on that, but I'd like to list a couple of problems I've had with the setting that I'd like to see fixed.

First, the timeline, or specifically the fact that the game takes place only ten years after the fall. My biggest gripe with this is that it's unnecessary and makes it so you can't play as a character raised after the fall in any way. Well, outside of the Lost.

The second parts is the demographics and how it ties into the timeline. In 1st edition, there were eight billion people, with five million in space. After the Fall, there .5 Billion. This means that there were 495 million earth refugees. Which raises the question why the factions are Extropian and Barsoomian when every single one of the 1st edition factions are probably outnumbered by the ten million refugees from Vietnam alone. Only ten years after the Fall, the refugees, who outnumber the spacers 99 to 1, are probably still divided on a nationalistic level from earth than on cultural levels for factions that small. I could maybe see them assimilating over time,but only ten years feels way too short to be realistic.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
saithorthepyro wrote:This is

saithorthepyro wrote:
This is a rather late post, and my apologies on that, but I'd like to list a couple of problems I've had with the setting that I'd like to see fixed.

First, the timeline, or specifically the fact that the game takes place only ten years after the fall. My biggest gripe with this is that it's unnecessary and makes it so you can't play as a character raised after the fall in any way. Well, outside of the Lost.

The second parts is the demographics and how it ties into the timeline. In 1st edition, there were eight billion people, with five million in space. After the Fall, there .5 Billion. This means that there were 495 million earth refugees. Which raises the question why the factions are Extropian and Barsoomian when every single one of the 1st edition factions are probably outnumbered by the ten million refugees from Vietnam alone. Only ten years after the Fall, the refugees, who outnumber the spacers 99 to 1, are probably still divided on a nationalistic level from earth than on cultural levels for factions that small. I could maybe see them assimilating over time,but only ten years feels way too short to be realistic.

A key point to remember here is that Extropia and the Barsoomians [bold]predate the fall[/bold]. They did not spring into existance monthes after, they're rising powers and activists even during the time that no one knows about the TITANs. The earth refugees are just that, refugees fleeing out into the wider solar system, hoping that someone will take them in.

What you're talking about is actually a reason for habs to be very careful how quickly they pull out infugees from the banks, they don't want their own important culture and society to be swamped by tons of old school ideas who don't know how to live in space or the hostile moons where just walking outside is a fast death for yourself. Not like on earth where you get air for free without having to work for it. Even if there were free flowing resources and fabrication time (and there's really not) the culture pressures alone would insist that a smart hab who wants to keep being them has an upper limit to how quickly they can take in new populace.

That said, you do have a point: clearly the books don't give us a very clear picture of what things -before- the fall were like if people reading the books don't pick that up on their own.

Still, I think ten years is right around the perfect amount of time: things aren't actively on fire anymore, people have had time to "get back to normal" in some sense, even if it's a new normal. As for not being a member of the lost, while they're a major generation to be from, that's not the only way to raise a kid. You can still be a decently normally raised teen, it just implies that you were really young at the time of the fall.

Or just be eight and convince everyone else that you're in a neotenic. I might try that sometime.

A slight smell of ions....

saithorthepyro saithorthepyro's picture
o11o1 wrote:saithorthepyro

o11o1 wrote:
saithorthepyro wrote:
This is a rather late post, and my apologies on that, but I'd like to list a couple of problems I've had with the setting that I'd like to see fixed.

First, the timeline, or specifically the fact that the game takes place only ten years after the fall. My biggest gripe with this is that it's unnecessary and makes it so you can't play as a character raised after the fall in any way. Well, outside of the Lost.

The second parts is the demographics and how it ties into the timeline. In 1st edition, there were eight billion people, with five million in space. After the Fall, there .5 Billion. This means that there were 495 million earth refugees. Which raises the question why the factions are Extropian and Barsoomian when every single one of the 1st edition factions are probably outnumbered by the ten million refugees from Vietnam alone. Only ten years after the Fall, the refugees, who outnumber the spacers 99 to 1, are probably still divided on a nationalistic level from earth than on cultural levels for factions that small. I could maybe see them assimilating over time,but only ten years feels way too short to be realistic.

A key point to remember here is that Extropia and the Barsoomians [bold]predate the fall[/bold]. They did not spring into existance monthes after, they're rising powers and activists even during the time that no one knows about the TITANs. The earth refugees are just that, refugees fleeing out into the wider solar system, hoping that someone will take them in.

What you're talking about is actually a reason for habs to be very careful how quickly they pull out infugees from the banks, they don't want their own important culture and society to be swamped by tons of old school ideas who don't know how to live in space or the hostile moons where just walking outside is a fast death for yourself. Not like on earth where you get air for free without having to work for it. Even if there were free flowing resources and fabrication time (and there's really not) the culture pressures alone would insist that a smart hab who wants to keep being them has an upper limit to how quickly they can take in new populace.

That said, you do have a point: clearly the books don't give us a very clear picture of what things -before- the fall were like if people reading the books don't pick that up on their own.

Still, I think ten years is right around the perfect amount of time: things aren't actively on fire anymore, people have had time to "get back to normal" in some sense, even if it's a new normal. As for not being a member of the lost, while they're a major generation to be from, that's not the only way to raise a kid. You can still be a decently normally raised teen, it just implies that you were really young at the time of the fall.

Or just be eight and convince everyone else that you're in a neotenic. I might try that sometime.

That's not entirely my point. I know that Extropians, Barsoomians and so on pre-date the fall. My point is that the earth refugees of the fall outnumber all of the spacer factions by 99 to 1. While yes they are refugees looking for a place to take them in, it would make sense for factions to be based on old nationalistic ideologies, as that is the mentality they are used to, and they would band together out of that shared ideology. There would be probably be factions who would want to turn the various system planets into 'New America','New Russia','New China', etc. instead of integrating into the spacer culture. While without the nation the mentality would fade away, only ten years and not even a new generation, ti stretches the suspension of disbelief that there are no factions based on the old earth nations.

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Factions and controls

The issue of old national factions would certainly be a key point on any mass immigrating population, but the existing factions limit this specifically to retain their own identities, and self interest.

Only in the Titanian Commonwealth is there a strict standard of "A body for every Ego" - other places do NOT hold themselves to such standards and a significant number are noted or hinted at holding the immense majority of infugee's in Indenture, simulspace 'waiting areas' or flat out cold-storage (that is to say, not even realizing they're a stack in a box beside the stations hot-water tanks).

When members of these populations are reinstantiated, given a morph and etc, it is strongly implied to be done piecemeal, with little, if any, consideration for family or friends (if any of them survived in the first place). Other places slap the new infugees with Indenture, or sift through the infugee/cold storage populations looking for specific skills embedded in their ego.

Worse still are the unfortunates that did NOT make it to 'safe' harbours and are specifically the playthings of their captors (like at Legba).

Long and short: The situation you're describing would occur if every ego had a right to a body, and that right was enacted en-masse. In Eclipse Phase, they don't (excepting the Commonwealth), and no polity is properly supplied to provide even crappy Cases for every infugee and ego in cold storage waiting for a body - much less the real estate and infrastructure needed to house so many individuals.

Daemon-Dynamics Projects:
2nd Edition Morph Creation Rules


saithorthepyro saithorthepyro's picture
Lurkingdaemon wrote:The issue

Lurkingdaemon wrote:
The issue of old national factions would certainly be a key point on any mass immigrating population, but the existing factions limit this specifically to retain their own identities, and self interest.

Only in the Titanian Commonwealth is there a strict standard of "A body for every Ego" - other places do NOT hold themselves to such standards and a significant number are noted or hinted at holding the immense majority of infugee's in Indenture, simulspace 'waiting areas' or flat out cold-storage (that is to say, not even realizing they're a stack in a box beside the stations hot-water tanks).

When members of these populations are reinstantiated, given a morph and etc, it is strongly implied to be done piecemeal, with little, if any, consideration for family or friends (if any of them survived in the first place). Other places slap the new infugees with Indenture, or sift through the infugee/cold storage populations looking for specific skills embedded in their ego.

Worse still are the unfortunates that did NOT make it to 'safe' harbours and are specifically the playthings of their captors (like at Legba).

Long and short: The situation you're describing would occur if every ego had a right to a body, and that right was enacted en-masse. In Eclipse Phase, they don't (excepting the Commonwealth), and no polity is properly supplied to provide even crappy Cases for every infugee and ego in cold storage waiting for a body - much less the real estate and infrastructure needed to house so many individuals.

I do understand this point, but after ten years presumably enough people have been given morphs for this to become an issue. I just want to see it addressed, or the possibility of those factions forming as playable ones similar to the Reclaimers.

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
It's also possible that

It's also possible that national identity became less important to people during the 100+ years between the present and the Fall.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
Yeah. We don't know if

Yeah. We don't know if America as we know it survived that long. Did the UN get anything useful done, or were mega corporations already taking things over?

A slight smell of ions....

CloudiDust CloudiDust's picture
o11o1 wrote:Yeah. We don't

o11o1 wrote:
Yeah. We don't know if America as we know it survived that long. Did the UN get anything useful done, or were mega corporations already taking things over?

TITAN was a US military AI project gone mad. And China had their counterpart the MIND (EDIT: the 100 Flowers neural network, not the MIND). So I guess yes the (major) countries we know seemed to survive, still had considerable power, and the old animosities. That was until the Fall teared everything apart. And the UN? I don't expect it to have done much useful.

But then again that TITAN-inventing US might still have changed so much that it might not be correct to consider it "America as we know it".

CloudiDust CloudiDust's picture
Also now I remember that

Also now I remember that China's AI project was called "100 flowers", I'd say it was a bit weird. We Chinese usually use "100 flowers"/"Bai Hua" to refer to the flourishing of arts. Not a name I personally would give a military AI.

Maybe "Pan Gu" (In Chinese mythology, the *titan* who separated Heaven and Earth and whose body became the World as we know it.) could be a better name? Or "Xi He" (The Sun Goddess)?

135mya 135mya's picture
100 Flowers

It's possible China wasn't developing a military AI--it could have been some corporate thing to manufacture music or literature or something, no?

knasser knasser's picture
.

I haven't read all replies so apologies if this is covered. My chief problems with Eclipse Phase that I would like to see addressed are the following.

1. Remove the power limits. Currently, I can have a Surya morph (space whale) in a contest of strength with a Fury and the Fury win. EP doesn't have "Strength" it has "Somatics" so clearly the intent is that the contest between the two be about some more complex outcome - who can hit the other, who can grapple away the MacGuffin from the other. And these scenarios make sense. But ultimately there are just two many times when I come up with some Titan designed mech and some human-sized biomorph tripping it up or outrunning it or whatever. Ditto for giant synths - ships, huge loading machines, whatever. I feel constrained. I saw size modifiers in the playtest documents, so it's moving in the right direction. But low ceiling was a big problem for me in the system so I'm raising it.

2. Please have less of a political agenda in the fluff. The PC and Jovian Junta views are embarrassingly cartoonish. There have been some wonderful apologia for both here on the forums, in character. Grab some of that for the new edition. No Bad Guys™

Those are the main things for me.

"We're here to save the planet. But not for free."

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
The US was never the same after California fell into the ocean.

'A Time of Eclipse' goes into some detail about how Earth was becoming moderately shittered in the years before the fall, with increasing governmental oppression, a worsening global climate and shadowrun-esque megacorporations making things like National Culture lose distinction and become more implicitly hostile (at least until 20BF).

Beyond that, there's the question of what Cultural Identity actually implies - for the most part, those specific mores/memes one associates with any given culture are not limited to that culture ("Trans-cultural diffusion"), or are based on genealogy or a sense of connection to that culture's specific history, neither of which require exclusive adherence to that culture; you can be both Jewish and American at the same time, even if you live in Scandinavia.

I've also mentioned on other threads that whilst the PC Indenture system is of dubious economic use it's absolutely fantastic for cultural indoctrination, whilst the Autonomists simply overwhelm newcomers with wealth and freedom.

Finally, there's a canonical location for those who still have an attachment to Old-Earth cultures despite all of the above: Luna.

CloudiDust wrote:
Also now I remember that China's AI project was called "100 flowers", I'd say it was a bit weird. We Chinese usually use "100 flowers"/"Bai Hua" to refer to the flourishing of arts. Not a name I personally would give a military AI.

How about one designed to monitor cultural trends and propganda to prevent foreign manipulation of public opinion?

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Gimmicks

Kinda want to see some of the gimmicky traits and wares show up, and have more new ones introduced. Reason being: flat +/- bonuses to this skill or that action are boring and practical.

With how things are being streamlined, it would be nice to see traits, wares and gear that behave uniquely, or twist the base mechanics in unusual/interesting ways.

Daemon-Dynamics Projects:
2nd Edition Morph Creation Rules


o11o1 o11o1's picture
Lurkingdaemon wrote:Kinda

Lurkingdaemon wrote:
Kinda want to see some of the gimmicky traits and wares show up, and have more new ones introduced. Reason being: flat +/- bonuses to this skill or that action are boring and practical.

Easy to write though, which probably why they popped up first.

A slight smell of ions....

CloudiDust CloudiDust's picture
135mya wrote:It's possible

135mya wrote:
It's possible China wasn't developing a military AI--it could have been some corporate thing to manufacture music or literature or something, no?

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
How about one designed to monitor cultural trends and propganda to prevent foreign manipulation of public opinion?

This way it would not be a direct counterpart of TITAN ... oh wait, who said that a military super AI could not also do the above? (Or simply, "The Chinese used this inconspicuous name as a disguise.")

----------

As for 2e, I'd like a bit more fluff regarding Reps in the core book. Particularly, how do the rep networks defend against tampering? On modern social networks, reputations are easily manipulable. Just because many "like" somebody, doesn't mean that somebody is truly trustworthy. And vice versa.

Maybe "The reputations are not some numbers that get simply increased/decreased, but multi-faceted data sets calculated by complex AI programs, taking into account a lot of factors and with anti-tampering. The rep scores we see are just abstracted game mechanics." But then why would we trust those AI programs?

Or maybe "They simply don't do anti-tampering. So yes there will be those problems."

Ultimately, trusting is hard.

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
On the subject of fluff...

One thing I'd like to see is examples or descriptions of 'ground up' living situations for the major players of the system. Most of the lore was good at telling us how things worked, but was light on the 'show' part of the whole process - leaving a lot of guesswork for the minute details which only really matter for day-to-day living, but are still helpful and formative for immersion in the setting, and character building.

Another thing I'd like to see is a more sympathetic 'first impression' description of the Jovians in the core book. Rather than labelling them luddites and extremists in their beliefs, I'd like to see a description of Jovians closer to the picture painted in Rimward: that of a people spurred by fear, rather than inspiration, at once protected by the institutions of their government and faith, while also being victims of the merciless control those same institutions maintain on their daily lives (I.e. the church and government quashing/barring medical technologies which could help with the hinted-at epidemics of cancers and radiation-related illnesses).

Similar tacks could be taken with inner system groups too - like the stability and lifestyle familiarity (compared to current western/european lifestyles) offered by the Consortium or Morningstar.

Daemon-Dynamics Projects:
2nd Edition Morph Creation Rules


GRAAK GRAAK's picture
Suryas

I don't know if someone already brought this up but Suryas need to be moved (at least) away from the Sun, since photons cannot be bent by magnetic fields. Those whales would fry in milliseconds!

If EP wants to remain a hard scifi game, of course... Otherwise everything is possible!

DocRodgers DocRodgers's picture
A minor gripe.

I know this is a small issue (to the point I can't think of a better place to bring it up), but something that's an annoyance in the fist edition rules is that speeds are written as "KPS" and from context can be assumed to refer to Kilometers Per Second. This is not the convention for the metric system, with "Km/s" being the appropriate way to shorten it.

Granted, I could be completely misinterpreting...

GRAAK GRAAK's picture
Oh, I forgot this one: I

Oh, I forgot this one: I definitely would like to read more scenarios and adventures! If there's a parte where 1st edition is lacking imho is that it has little support for stories and narration for unexperienced groups, when compared to other RPGs...

Proxy Bastion Proxy Bastion's picture
Recommendations

If I were to rewrite the skills this is how I would categorize them.

Academics = Characters education
Athletics = Freerunning/Climbing/Swimming/Thrown Weapons/Flight
Deception = Same as in 1st ED
Espionage = Disguise/Impersonation/Palming
Fray = same as in 1st ED
Freefalling = Same as in 1st ED
Hardware = Same as in 1st ED
Heavy Munitions = Seekers/Demolitions/Spray Weapons(excluding shard and shredder pistols)/Gunnery
Infiltration = Same as in 1st ED
Infosec = Same as in 1st ED
Interfacing = Same as in 1st ED
Interest = Same as in 1st ED
Inspection = Scrounging/Investigation
Kinesics = Protocol/Animal Handling
Perception = Same as in 1st ED
Provocation = Intimidate, also includes seduction
Medicine = Same as in 1st ED
Melee = Blades/Clubs/Exotic Melee/Exotic Ranged
Munitions = Beam Weapons/Kinetic Weapon/ (shard and shredder pistols)
Research = Same as in 1st ED
Pilot = Same as in 1st ED
Programming = Same as in 1st ED
Profession = Unlike Academics profession is related to experience rather than training
Psi = Psi Assault/Control/Sense

Reputation Networks are capped at SAVx3

saithorthepyro saithorthepyro's picture
Timeline

Okay, sorry it took me so long to get back here, but first

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
It's also possible that national identity became less important to people during the 100+ years between the present and the Fall.

According to the timeline given in the core rulebook, the 'present' of Eclipse Phase that it is set in is 10 AF. 10 years after the Fall. Not 100. And IMO, 10 years is way, way too short of a time for National identities to have fallen apart.

saithorthepyro saithorthepyro's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:'A

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
'A Time of Eclipse' goes into some detail about how Earth was becoming moderately shittered in the years before the fall, with increasing governmental oppression, a worsening global climate and shadowrun-esque megacorporations making things like National Culture lose distinction and become more implicitly hostile (at least until 20BF).

Beyond that, there's the question of what Cultural Identity actually implies - for the most part, those specific mores/memes one associates with any given culture are not limited to that culture ("Trans-cultural diffusion"), or are based on genealogy or a sense of connection to that culture's specific history, neither of which require exclusive adherence to that culture; you can be both Jewish and American at the same time, even if you live in Scandinavia.

I've also mentioned on other threads that whilst the PC Indenture system is of dubious economic use it's absolutely fantastic for cultural indoctrination, whilst the Autonomists simply overwhelm newcomers with wealth and freedom.

Finally, there's a canonical location for those who still have an attachment to Old-Earth cultures despite all of the above: Luna.

CloudiDust wrote:
Also now I remember that China's AI project was called "100 flowers", I'd say it was a bit weird. We Chinese usually use "100 flowers"/"Bai Hua" to refer to the flourishing of arts. Not a name I personally would give a military AI.

How about one designed to monitor cultural trends and propganda to prevent foreign manipulation of public opinion?

Okay, cultural indoctrination based on that method could work and would help explain it, but then there would probably be groups of one form or another opposing it and trying to fight against it. And the parts about Luna are good as well. The issue is I doubt how well the indoctrination would work with the sheer flood. Again, if we go by the demographics, earth refugees outnumber the spacers by 99 to 1. There would be more survivors of Vietnam, than there are Spacers. Which means that Reclaimers would be a majority of the population, even if most are infolifes. Again, there are ways to explain this,yours are pretty good, I just want to see them included in the core book instead of left out and leaving this hole in the history.

Also, I still think it's annoying that it's not really possible to play a Post-Fall generation character without playing a Lost. Or a ten year old. At least in the cannon time period.

Lurkingdaemon Lurkingdaemon's picture
Reading between the timelines...

saithorthepyro wrote:
Okay, sorry it took me so long to get back here, but first

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
It's also possible that national identity became less important to people during the 100+ years between the present and the Fall.

According to the timeline given in the core rulebook, the 'present' of Eclipse Phase that it is set in is 10 AF. 10 years after the Fall. Not 100. And IMO, 10 years is way, way too short of a time for National identities to have fallen apart.

Even with there 'only' being 10 years of separation from the Fall to the present, 10 years is still 10 years of time. My memory is admittedly bad, so I have a hard time recalling significant events between now and 2007. With everything that can be done - parties, resleeves, adventures or so on - especially when you start tinkering with subjective and objective time-perception, 10 years could be the same as 10 centuries as far as individuals, or small communities are concerned.

On that note...

It's never outright stated, but I think someone, somewhere put two and two together using their astronomy skills and figured out roughly how long from 'now' the EP universe actually is. Unless I'm remembering it horribly wrong, it's been figured the present of EP is roughly around 2190 - with the fall happening roughly at 2180 (or 2178-2180, given there's some hints at the fall lasting a year or two, including the time it took to evacuate and quarantine earth). That leaves well over a century and a half of social and cultural drift to occur, punctuated by a very traumatic and destructive exodus to anywhere that would take in an infugee.

Finally, some of the books mention that, at least in the more rimward habitats and settled places, the subjective shifts in culture and so on make 10 years seem like 10 generations - which is an even greater separation in a communities collective awareness than most current interpretations of WW1.

I will agree, however, that these points should be made a bit more clear in the introductory fiction - but it's still a case of 90%-99% of humanity being effectively dead and their culture wiped out. Any surviving 'national' loyalties would have to face that very gruesome fact, as well face other polities who are already established in the name of a particular nation (the Jovians stand out in this regard - being mostly from the US and Americas).

Daemon-Dynamics Projects:
2nd Edition Morph Creation Rules


Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
saithorthepyro wrote:Okay,

saithorthepyro wrote:
Okay, sorry it took me so long to get back here, but first

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
It's also possible that national identity became less important to people during the 100+ years between the present and the Fall.

According to the timeline given in the core rulebook, the 'present' of Eclipse Phase that it is set in is 10 AF. 10 years after the Fall. Not 100. And IMO, 10 years is way, way too short of a time for National identities to have fallen apart.

And AF 0 is roughly 120 years from now, going from the given seasons of Uranus in the core book, so the EP AF10 present is about 2130-2150 CE.

I'll see if I can dig up the relevant thread.

EDIT: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/60034#comment-60034

It's not a "canon" year, but it's ballpark accurate I think.

Wyvernjack Wyvernjack's picture
Probably already mentioned but

Would like to see a bit more info, guidelines on setting up Fake ID's and personas without making them some easy, free way to get stuff via reps.

Maybe a streamlined hacking, it's a very core feature, but seems hard to get into and somewhat tedious.

Reshy Reshy's picture
knasser wrote:I haven't read

knasser wrote:
I haven't read all replies so apologies if this is covered. My chief problems with Eclipse Phase that I would like to see addressed are the following.

1. Remove the power limits. Currently, I can have a Surya morph (space whale) in a contest of strength with a Fury and the Fury win. EP doesn't have "Strength" it has "Somatics" so clearly the intent is that the contest between the two be about some more complex outcome - who can hit the other, who can grapple away the MacGuffin from the other. And these scenarios make sense. But ultimately there are just two many times when I come up with some Titan designed mech and some human-sized biomorph tripping it up or outrunning it or whatever. Ditto for giant synths - ships, huge loading machines, whatever. I feel constrained. I saw size modifiers in the playtest documents, so it's moving in the right direction. But low ceiling was a big problem for me in the system so I'm raising it.

2. Please have less of a political agenda in the fluff. The PC and Jovian Junta views are embarrassingly cartoonish. There have been some wonderful apologia for both here on the forums, in character. Grab some of that for the new edition. No Bad Guys™

Those are the main things for me.

I second both of these things. Somatics is about how to apply force, but there still needs to be an accurate representation of how much force a morph has to bear. It's literally the difference between skill/accuracy and strength. Skill can make a lot of difference, but there's still limitations of what you can do with what you have (Something the setting seems to forget about frequently, like "highly adaptive" anything).

I also definitely no Bad Guys™. It really kills the depth and complexity to a setting when one faction is objectively evil.

EDIT: Also part of me would like to see the system move away from d100 since it's known for being swingy.

ProxyKlee ProxyKlee's picture
Writing about trans characters

I've noticed that when a character in the books is revealed as trans (e.g. Rokuzawa Chi) it's always written "born male/female" which is falling out of favor. This is really glaring to me as a trans woman since EP takes place 100+ years in the future, you would think they would at least use "Assigned Male/Female at Birth (AMAB, AFAB)" which is the current nomenclature when referring to a trans person's past. I'm not going to get into the theory of why one is better than the other here. I just wanted to say something that has been bothering me a bit since Rimward came out.

jackgraham jackgraham's picture
ProxyKlee wrote:... you would

ProxyKlee wrote:
... you would think they would at least use "Assigned Male/Female at Birth (AMAB, AFAB)" which is the current nomenclature when referring to a trans person's past...

Thanks for pointing this out. The language around how we talk about trans people has evolved really rapidly in recent years, and it's sometimes hard to keep up. I'm not sure that Chi would describe themself as trans per our 2017 understanding; things have evolved in EP. But that extrapolation is fraught with pitfalls, so we should probably modify our language out of respect for present day trans people.

J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!
  http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
What does it even mean to be

What does it even mean to be transgender in Eclipse Phase? If there's a mismatch between the gender of your sleeve and the gender of your ego, why not just swap for a different sleeve?

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
That's something I've been

That's something I've been wondering myself. Ye gods man, there are people wandering around as ambulatory plants and wholly digital conciousnesses, and people still feel what equipment they're born with has any bearing on who they are?

Reshy Reshy's picture
In the realm of Eclipse Phase

In the realm of Eclipse Phase, Transgender I don't feel has any relevance as a term within the context of the setting. Sex change biomods are cheap and affordable, cosmetic surgeries are also very cheap, Morphs are available in a wide variety of sexes including intersexed, Infomorphs can take the appearance of whatever they wish effectively.

Being transgender isn't really an issue in this setting anymore, it's so easy to "fix" that problem that it's effectively irrelevant. At least that's how I see it. I don't think identity politics has much place in a game like Eclipse Phase.

Wyvernjack Wyvernjack's picture
I don't think it's a big

I don't think it's a big issue, none of the trans friends I know would want that kind of special treatment. In EP setting, a person with this mindset can make their body match the mental preference with a few hours in a vat or at the morph shop. Unlike 2017, if a guy feels like a girl, he'll just become a girl and that's that. An agent would never have to re-affirm she's a she if she feels like it no matter original birth.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
In AF20 everyone has thier own personal habitat. Or are extinct.

saithorthepyro wrote:
Okay, cultural indoctrination based on that method could work and would help explain it, but then there would probably be groups of one form or another opposing it and trying to fight against it. And the parts about Luna are good as well. The issue is I doubt how well the indoctrination would work with the sheer flood. Again, if we go by the demographics, earth refugees outnumber the spacers by 99 to 1.

Volume is a consideration, but remember these people aren't/didn't turn up under their own power; they're pretty much all infugees, which means the incarnating polity has implicit control over the rate and location an individual is activated, as well as having pretty solid influence over the individual's initial social connections. This is where Memetics and Social Mechanics become key elements.
This may sound authoritarian, but it's a straight up necessity to prevent the development of insular/isolationist subgroups or ghettos. Yes, there are more refugees than Spacers, but those refugees will be instanced in mixed groups to prevent conflicts, and that in turn makes the Spacers the dominant culture which the refugees will cling to.
This doesn't mean that old-world cultures or adherents go away, but it delays the emergence of dedicated groups and diffuses them into society, rather then having them stand independently.

saithorthepyro wrote:
Also, I still think it's annoying that it's not really possible to play a Post-Fall generation character without playing a Lost. Or a ten year old. At least in the cannon time period.

This is actually where I think the 10 year mark is useful. It's a point close enough to the Fall that it acts as a shared social Trauma and limits technological dispersal through the Solar System, whilst being far enough that the long-term cultural effects are beginning to emerge.
You can still play a post-Fall character, or at least one who has no memory of it, thanks to time dilation (The lost was the most major example, but not the only one), but they're rare enough to be a specific character choice rather than the default.

jackgraham wrote:
But that extrapolation is fraught with pitfalls, so we should probably modify our language out of respect for present day trans people.

I'd honestly like personal gender identity to be dispensed with entirely – physical gender is useful for imagining a character's appearance, and sexual preference can guide a characters reactions based on that appearance, but beyond that it simply doesn't say anything useful.

What I'd really like to see is the next version of the Playtest documents :P
I don't want to do more testing if what's tested is obsolete :D

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Reshy Reshy's picture
The game's already taken on

The game's already taken on the singular "they" I don't think much else is needed that won't come across as needlessly pandering.

Voormas Voormas's picture
I would like to see some idea

I would like to see some idea of the world progressing slightly from the 1E core; a tidbit about the Belt Builders, rumors of a recent leadership spill among Nine Lives, etc.

Beyond that I'm really looking forward to the Crime book, the campaign I have been planning for a while is heavily weighted towards criminal factions and how Firewall react to them (cells who can be practical but draw the line somewhere, cells that take an activist approach to thwarting crime when they can, cells that are just horrible fucks but get the job done, etc)

Reshy Reshy's picture
Yeah setting progression I

Yeah setting progression I would say should be made. It's been 7 years since the game's been released, it would be nice if the setting actually went forward and wasn't stuck in a stasis.

GRAAK GRAAK's picture
Reshy wrote:Yeah setting

Reshy wrote:
Yeah setting progression I would say should be made. It's been 7 years since the game's been released, it would be nice if the setting actually went forward and wasn't stuck in a stasis.

I agree, I wish a little metaplot... Not as heavy to be an hindrance but substantial enough to give life and a sense of development to the setting! I know it's not an easy thing to balance,nonetheless......

o11o1 o11o1's picture
I'm actually going to

I'm actually going to disagree with you on injecting an overall metaplot to the game.

That said, It'd be nice to have some material talking about what things were like 2 years ago, 5 years ago, and what sort of social developments seem to be in progress at the moment that might show up a year or two. With an eye to "Here are what each faction is trying to make happen, and places where the PCs could come in and tilt things one way or the other".

A slight smell of ions....

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
One thing that might be neat

One thing that might be neat would be to borrow a concept used in other RPGs, where there's a "canonical" timeline that spans a couple of decades and rules for equipment, technologies and factions common at various points along that timeline.

You could start the timeline at AF 0, basically just as the Fall is "over" and the dust hasn't yet settled; inner system politics are in chaos, the makeshift Titanian navy is still bombing the crap out of Iapetus, the Martian Rangers are forming to establish a quarantine zone, The Eye is still trying to piece together what happened and the players are among the first "field agents" of what will soon be dubbed Firewall.

Then you'd have the AF 10 epoch, which is the setting as released in 1E. How far out would it go though? Hard to say without making huge assumptions about posthuman technological progress but I'd imagine AF 50 would be where things start to get House of Suns wacky; too far beyond that and you're playing relativistic space opera which deserves its own game entirely.

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

Reshy Reshy's picture
o11o1 wrote:I'm actually

o11o1 wrote:
I'm actually going to disagree with you on injecting an overall metaplot to the game.

That said, It'd be nice to have some material talking about what things were like 2 years ago, 5 years ago, and what sort of social developments seem to be in progress at the moment that might show up a year or two. With an eye to "Here are what each faction is trying to make happen, and places where the PCs could come in and tilt things one way or the other".

Well, it's kind of hard to develop new material when no time has passed and you aren't allowed to say for sure what happens or when it happens.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
Reshy wrote:o11o1 wrote:I'm

Reshy wrote:
o11o1 wrote:
I'm actually going to disagree with you on injecting an overall metaplot to the game.

That said, It'd be nice to have some material talking about what things were like 2 years ago, 5 years ago, and what sort of social developments seem to be in progress at the moment that might show up a year or two. With an eye to "Here are what each faction is trying to make happen, and places where the PCs could come in and tilt things one way or the other".

Well, it's kind of hard to develop new material when no time has passed and you aren't allowed to say for sure what happens or when it happens.

Ahha! Now see there's an assumption that GMs need to let go off to be able to run Eclipse Phase well. This assumption there's some sort of canon future for EP and that as a result they're not allowed to change anything.

Now, if we need to write material to counter this, then it seems like what we need are multiple choice futures. Discussion about possible outcomes, and what -those- look like. Maybe nickname them if you want to have a set of known metaplots.

What I don't want to see is what happened in the Classic World of Darkness where you have a heavy-handed metaplot that drags everyone else along unwillingly. And while one is fantasy and the other scifi, *both* are very apocalyptic, which is why they're potentially vulnerable to the same sort of traps.

A slight smell of ions....

135mya 135mya's picture
o11o1 wrote:Reshy wrote:o11o1

o11o1 wrote:
Reshy wrote:
o11o1 wrote:
I'm actually going to disagree with you on injecting an overall metaplot to the game.

That said, It'd be nice to have some material talking about what things were like 2 years ago, 5 years ago, and what sort of social developments seem to be in progress at the moment that might show up a year or two. With an eye to "Here are what each faction is trying to make happen, and places where the PCs could come in and tilt things one way or the other".

Well, it's kind of hard to develop new material when no time has passed and you aren't allowed to say for sure what happens or when it happens.

Ahha! Now see there's an assumption that GMs need to let go off to be able to run Eclipse Phase well. This assumption there's some sort of canon future for EP and that as a result they're not allowed to change anything.

Now, if we need to write material to counter this, then it seems like what we need are multiple choice futures. Discussion about possible outcomes, and what -those- look like. Maybe nickname them if you want to have a set of known metaplots.

What I don't want to see is what happened in the Classic World of Darkness where you have a heavy-handed metaplot that drags everyone else along unwillingly. And while one is fantasy and the other scifi, *both* are very apocalyptic, which is why they're potentially vulnerable to the same sort of traps.

EP has much more in common with Shadowrun than WoD, and the SR metaplot didn't drag anything anywhere but allowed for growth and change as our understanding of the future and technology evolved.

As a result it's not that hard to imagine everyday life in the Sixth World, but for me it's been a lot harder to immerse myself on what things are like for people outside of, like, Mars, and that's pretty much entirely because I run Olympus Mons like Space-Seattle-meets-Barsoom.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
...as if millions of plotlines cried out in terror...

I think it says a lot about EP that one of the main things people want is 'More Of It'. :)
I will gladly lend my voice to the call for MOAR.

That said, I really hate Metaplots, simply because they overwrite setting details instead of adding to them - "Did you like this plot element? Oh well, it's gone now".
The usual response to this is "You're the GM, you can decide what to ignore", but one way or the other I'm stuck with material I can't use... and if I'm having to make stuff up then what's the point in the first place.

What I could see is something similar to the ETI motivations bit from the corebook, where specific plotlines are provided with a list of potential outcomes, and how they could interact with the setting.
Likewise with published adventures, so that GMs have guidelines/inspiration for how the player's actions influence the setting.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

DiploRaptor DiploRaptor's picture
The 4 Types of Moxie has got to go

I would like it not too exist.... oh wait no no that is not helpful at all ummmm.....

Just Moxie I hate the 4 different types of moxie

Welcome, we shall watch your madness please inform us when you are fully insane

Maudova Maudova's picture
What would you like to see

What would you like to see instead?

~Alpha Fork Initialized.
P.S. I often post from my phone as I travel extensively for work. Please forgive typos and grammar issues.

Grim G Grim G's picture
DiploRaptor wrote:I would

DiploRaptor wrote:
I would like it not too exist.... oh wait no no that is not helpful at all ummmm.....

Just Moxie I hate the 4 different types of moxie


I can't see that happen, TBH. The whole point of it was to solve on of EP's biggest problems; sleeving rules. Personally I like this system, it's a lot like Numenera.
Reshy Reshy's picture
It is rather weird, I can see

It is rather weird, I can see why they did it, but at the same time it doesn't quite feel right to say that a particular morph isn't any better in it's area of expertise when it runs out of a very limited pool of "metagame points".

Also the recharge mechanic reminds me of 4e D&D and I really don't want to go back there.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
4e DnD had SOME good ideas.

I get that 4th edition had a lot of things wrong with it, but if developers and players decide that they're not going to use any mechanics that even *remind* them of it, that greatly restricts the available design space. I actually liked a lot of the ideas in 4th edition, but they tended to be implemented in a surprisingly restricted manner. It's that restriction and homogenized gameplay that I (we?) don't enjoy, not automatically sub-parts of the mechanics that led to it.

A slight smell of ions....

Grim G Grim G's picture
Reshy wrote:It is rather

Reshy wrote:
It is rather weird, I can see why they did it, but at the same time it doesn't quite feel right to say that a particular morph isn't any better in it's area of expertise when it runs out of a very limited pool of "metagame points".

Also the recharge mechanic reminds me of 4e D&D and I really don't want to go back there.


I see no problem with it, it's a good mechanic as any other to measure exhaustion, and it actually gives you more of a reason to play a Hibernoid. I don't think it's like some kind of metagame thing, it reminds me of numenera, I game I live just as much as EP.
Reshy Reshy's picture
I'd like to see a section on

I'd like to see a section on what it'd be like to grow up in the transhuman society. Seems like it's something that never really got answered in any of the books (or discussed).

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