Infomorphs - Draft 1 - Open Discussion

51 posts / 0 new
Last post
AdamJury AdamJury's picture
Infomorphs - Draft 1 - Open Discussion
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Math Boost

Math Boost Cost: Low Ego Trait Cost: 10 CP The character can perform any calculation, from simple arithmetic to factoring large prime numbers...

Bah, everyone can easily factor large prime numbers :)

Factoring products of large prime numbers, now that's difficult.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
So only semi-seriously; Ugh,

So only semi-seriously; Ugh, more access to good morphs with high speed. I really do dislike the RAW speed mechanic (not so bad now that I have houseruled it away). I know that infomorphs already had speed 3, but they were also kind of terrible. With infomorph like Eidolons that people might actually pick, I see a lot more frustration down the road.

So much so that I would really, really encourage Posthuman to consider adding a really big sidebar with flashing neon that gives some optional versions of speed. I quite like my initiative groups thing, and I know that other people have their own version that works well.

Edot: To be clear, I am whinging about the speed rules, not infomorphs having high speed.

-

asura8 asura8's picture
So: just a few immediate

So: just a few immediate concerns about nothing in particular.

1. Eidolons: Nothing is explicitly stated about the limitations of this emulation shell. Can you uninstall the software from an architecture and bring it with you? Is it limited to the personal computer or server is installed on? This should certainly be cleared off. I'm taking the assumption that it's limited to a single architecture, be it Ghostrider or personal computer or server, and usable for any infomorph being run upon the architecture.

2. Increased Speed + Mind Speed concerns. One of the primary limitations to Infomorph hackers was the amount of actions they received in a turn. Unless I'm misreading something, Increased Speed + Mind Speed gives an Infomorph 12 Complex actions in a single round. Aside from bogging down the game with Infomorph turns, it seems to me that this would let any half-competent Infomorph near certain ability to hack anything that is connected to the mesh framework in a given action round.

This isn't concerning on it's own... except everything seems to be connected to the mesh. Tactical Networks, Smartlinks on guns, any sort of observation camera, etc. I think that if we're going to go down the route of huge amounts of Infomorph actions, we need to be cautious about what this means. Increased Speed on its own seems find, but Mind Speed puts us in an incredibly dangerous place to balance.

ScienceGuy ScienceGuy's picture
A general comment

I'm still working my way through the new infomorph rules, but a general comment has occurred to me. Slightly off-topic, but (I hope) generally relevant.

I *love* lots of the new draft stuff we're seeing here, and particularly how we're getting new options, and new levels of details of some of the central aspects of EP. This is adding a real richness to the setting.

However.

In some cases, this is adding complexity. And sometimes, this complexity isn't needed, as (more or less) the same effect can be achieved using the existing rules. Some of the traits are good examples and are noted by various people in the relevant threads (eg. 'Repurposing specialist' is just the existing skills, plus perhaps a specialisation).

I think one of the great strengths of EP is that there is a lot of scope for doing cool and interesting things in-game, without it being too complex and crunchy. While character gen is a bit involved, the in-game mechanics IMHO flow very nicely. It would be a real shame to lose this.

So, a plea to the games designers:

you've created an awesome game that I genuinely love playing. Please, please, try to keep the new options as simple as possible. If this means that a new trait becomes "just" a suggestion for how to use a given skill, that's absolutely fine.

I think you've done an excellent job of this in the various books so far; I wanted to emphasise this so you guys know how much it's appreciated. And I realise that there's often a natural tension between adding cool new stuff and keeping everything nice and simple :-)

Lalande21185 Lalande21185's picture
So I got morbidly curious and

So I got morbidly curious and took a quick glance through infomorphs. I know that this is a rough draft and all but ugh! At least it isn't as bad as the traits section.

1) This section should be at least 4 different sections. Rules for psychosurgy and digital egos, rules for infomorphs, rules for augmentations, and rules for software have all been jammed haphazardly together. It is a mess to read, and it will be a chore to look up in play.

2) I don't like that software emulation (infomorph) is massively superior to dedicated hardware (cyberbrains).

3) I don't like the virtual willpower thing they are doing with mental resilience and mental stability. For most characters taking those two traits is about equivalent to raising their WIL score by 3 (for 30 CP points). Just make it a +5 WIL implant and be done with it. Or just run a comfurt narcoalgorithm.

4) I don't like the massive redundancy in this section. A big chunk of it could have been removed by: A) changing some of the software upgrades to either straight software or bio/cyberware and B) adding a table like that on page 306 of the main book: A bulleted list of what enhancements are available for infomorphs. Does it really have to repeat the text of math boost, eidetic memory, mental speed, again?

5) I don't like the terminology. Add-ons and upgrades, upgrade masking which works on add-ons. It is needlessly confusing. It even confused the authors: there are a couple of upgrades (emergency backup and panopticon) which are hardware upgrades not software upgrades.

6) Some of the enhancements are generic software or should be available as bio/cyberware. Some of the others are things that should be available as modifications to 'any' software.

7) I don't like infomorphs not having access to muses since only one ego is run on a device. It should be 1 full ego and 1 AI, so infomorphs get muses to. In the trait section there is the muse phobic disadvantage that lists penalties for not having a muse. Do infomorphs suffer those penalties too?

8) The ediolon and server rules make infomorphs both ridiculously good and ridiculously complex. Maybe I am not the target audience of this book: but I don't want more complexity and power creep. In my opinion it is about as complex as it can be and still be playable: just go over to RPPR and listen to those poor people's attempts to run it and remember the rules.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Meanwhile, I think that I am

Meanwhile, I think that I am the target audience for this book, and I have no issue what-so-ever with the increase in complexity that some of these rule additions are giving us. Frankly I don't think that they are particularly complex. Everything seems to be optional, most of it will never come into play with characters that don't purposely make use of it, and it gives rules depth to those characters who do.

Which is what a Players Guide is supposed to do. It is supposed to provide mechanical support to fringe characters by giving them access to the system. Normal characters don't have to worry about Distributed Infomorphs. A GM only needs to worry about them if they happen to have a character that makes use of them, in which case they can spend five minutes learning them.

If you have an infomorph player in your group, you learn these rules. If not, you ignore them. They aren't difficult. Most of them are bonuses that can rest entirely on player knowledge. There are a few things here that I feel I would need to know as a GM, but most of it I would feel comfortable having general knowledge of, with the players filling in the gaps.

Nothing we have here is a new subsystem. Everything makes use of the core mechanic to do what it needs to do. It has close to the exact amount of complexity as the Psi system, which I don't see much confusion arising during play.

And honestly, I really don't think that we have to worry about infomorphs becoming OP. Mostly because everything else has the potential to be just as OP. I can close to promise you that anything you can do with an infomorph you can do with a biomorph or a synthmorph. You can probably do it better.

And finally, and I really don't mean to be rude towards the RPPR crowd, I have listening to the podcast since the beginning of the New World campaign, but they don't have the best history when it comes to rules comprehension. A lot of the time I feel that this is a stylistic choice, and I can see why they might not want to stop every hour or so for five minutes while someone does a rules lookup. But they have had difficulty with games that I consider really, really rather simple (4E for example), and I honestly don't think that they should be used as a gauge for rules difficulty.

(I really do mean the not rude thing, I <3 you RPPR crew).

-

lets adapt lets adapt's picture
Maybe I missed the

Maybe I missed the distinction somewhere in the rules about speed giving complex actions versus speed that only gives you access to additional complex mental actions, but I thought that speed was capped at 4? Does this not apply to infomorphs? Eidolons give, say, +2 speed bonus to an infomorph, who already starts out at a speed of +3. Is this to give the infomorph a buffer in case their hardware glitches and their speed is reduced or are they not limited by the speed limitations, giving the infomorph a total of +5 speed with the eidolon? I am missing something but I can't find any clarification in the core rulebook.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Its a clarity mistake. The

Its a clarity mistake. The Speed ratings of the Eidolons are written differently from every other morph for some reason. Instead of just writing that they have a speed of 4, they instead used +3, assuming that the character naturally has a speed of 1 (1+3 = 4).

Eidolons that say they have a speed of +3 have an actual speed of 4, while the ones that have a speed of +2 have the normal infomorph speed of 3.

I agree, that needs to be clarified.

-

Erenthia Erenthia's picture
Very happy to see more

Very happy to see more information about Infomorphs. I've wanted the ability to run an entire campaign in a massive simulspace since I first discovered EP. Sadly, Infomorphs have always been a low tier option (especially when you consider how easy it is to get Speed 3).

Eidolons are a great way to port the morph rules to simulspaces. Plugins and Addons do need to have their terminology cleaned up, but that's what this open playtest is for. It also needs to be a little more clear what you can make an intrinsic part of your ego (and therefore carry into an ego) and what you can't.

I do recommend having a "system speed" for for information systems players might want to hack. Just like how characters with Mental Speed have trouble interacting with others, a target system might limit the speed with which it interacts with outside systems as a security measure. (This would let me keep the Speed trait just as it is without having to change it, which I prefer. I like Speed the way it is).

Eidolons make other character concepts more viable as well, like having an infomorph loaded out with Eidolon bonuses, plug-ins, and addons running on a beefed up ghostrider module (one that is external/detachable letting him change morphs casually while keeping most of his bonuses).

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

kindalas kindalas's picture
Is it just me but I really

Is it just me but I really want an expensive (maybe an expensive for "cheap" Eidolon and Expensive+ for any Eidolon) version of s cyber brain so I can use Eidolons as an extra morph layer.

Just drop the speed by 2, and morph maximums to what ever morph they are in and victory.

I also like the idea of using the "implants" in cyber brains instead of their nanotech equivalents because it always seemed silly that mental speed and skillwires were a nano system for pods and synthmorphs when they should have been programs.

More thoughts later.

I am a Moderator of this Forum
My mod voice is red.

The Eclipse Phase Character sheet is downloadable here:
Get it here!

Lalande21185 Lalande21185's picture
Beware Ranting!

I don't know. When I hear 'Player's Guide', I think more of a guide to playing a game, you know? I get excited! Guides to complementary skills, perhaps. Maybe a guide to picking knowledge skills like that one in Panopticon (pg. 146). Alternate character creation systems that are easier for most people to use. All things to make the game run easier for people playing it: Good stuff, I am all over that.

But I read these playtest previews and I find things like 'Cyberbrains and Infomorph Enhancement' and I break my brain trying to figure out the ramifications of this to the mechanics of the game. Even if they look simple (and they don't, at least to me) they change everything when implemented. Just look at what changes for an average synthmorph:

Example: Old System wrote:
Synthmorph:
Synthmorph bonuses: +10 SOM, etc.
Cyberware: Cortical Stack, Puppet Sock, etc.
Nanoware: Medichines
Software: Muse

Example: New System wrote:
Synthmorph
Synthmorph bonuses: +10 SOM, etc.
Cyberware: Cortical Stack, Puppet Sock, etc.
Nanoware: Medichines
Software: Muse
Plug-Ins: Virtual Skillware, et cetera.
Upgrades: Speed 4 is totally easy now mod, etc.
Eidolon: Whatever (for when you evacuate your cyberbrain)

As for power creep. I wasn't talking about infomorphs per se, but rather systematically. An example:

  • Getting Permanent Speed 4 old system: Impossible, additionally every method to achieve speed 4 had side effects (drug addiction from kick and murder, damage from psi powers, fatique from neurochem level 2).
  • Getting Permanent Speed 4 new system: 30 cp, 11 cp if you don't care about side effects, or 5 if you are an infomorph.

Actually just now, looking a little closer at the preview, this sentence jumps out at me:

Quote:
Note that eidolons, like basic infomorphs, are software emulations of the hardware used by cyberbrains.

And I think critically about it for a second and I realize: OMG! There are cyberbrain versions of each of these eidolons! Remember that new system example I wrote up above? No. Now it is this:

New System wrote:

Synthmorph
Synthmorph Bonuses: +10 SOM, etc.
Cyberbrain Type: AGENT (+3 speed, +10 COG, +10 INT, etc.)
Cyberware: Cortical Stack, Puppet Sock, etc.
Nanoware: Medichines
Software: Muse
Plug-Ins: Virtual Skillware, ecetera.
Upgrades: Speed 4 is totally easy now mod still gives an extra mental complex action a round, etc.
Eidolon: AGENT (stick with what you know)

And I just realized that I have failed a WIL x 3 test and have taken multiple traumas. Worse my Art: Post Writing skill is only 20 and with a -20 penalty, there is no chance that I can make myself understood. So I am going to go eat some yogurt and talk to the voice in my head until I feel better.

tl;dr: What I am trying to say is that I wanted a Player's Guide that makes the system more accessible, easier to play, and helps present a coherent setting rather than do the exact opposite of all those things.

lets adapt lets adapt's picture
Quote:Note that eidolons,

Quote:
Note that eidolons, like basic infomorphs, are software emulations of the hardware used by cyberbrains.
Characters in physical morphs with cyberbrains cannot make use of eidolon plug-ins, upgrades, or other
advantages because the eidolon is discarded when the ego is loaded onto the cyberbrain hardware.

I think this means that cyberbrain users won't get the bonuses you mentioned? Like, an ego sleeved into an infomorph who then sleeves into a physical body will only transfer its ego, not any of the upgrades,add-ons or eidolons it has access to as an infomorph (unless they're psychosurgeried in a la the new rules for that, but such a thing is limited).

Edit: also, I think this might be worth a mention since I had trouble with it earlier: an infomorph's ease of access to max speed will only be mental actions, as they don't have a physical body. Granted, this makes them very dangerous controlling a fleet of drones, but max speed for an informorph wasn't something that was nigh impossible to obtain before the new toys.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
I think you are over

I think you are over exaggerating the additional complexity that these options are adding. Worse, you are taking 1st draft fluff and throwing that out to additional mechanics that aren't hinted at anywhere in these rules.

Lets go through the three big new mechanics one by one and describe what they are in current system terms;

Plug-Ins are new software options.

Upgrades are a new augmentation type, fitting into the bioware/cyberware/nanoware/robotic enhancement paradigm, with some having a trait value.

Eidolons are new morphs. That is all they are mechanically, new morphs that people can sleeve into, with a few extra restrictions applied.

I wasn't kidding when I said that these additions add no complexity whatsoever to the system. Everything we have here is either a logical extension of what we already have (the clarification on infomorphs moving through devices, for example) or a straight re-branding of things we already have.

On your Old System → New System thing. The only thing you are adding is a second morph, and another implant! That is all! You can do that in the current system! Instead of 'Plug-Ins' write 'Software', and instead of 'Upgrades' write 'Robotic Enhancements' and nothing changes. The rules are close to the exact same.

Goddamnit, I am really tired, and its getting late here. I feel I am not communicating my point across properly. I'm gonna go to sleep, and I'll have another go tomorrow morning. I don't mean to come across as indignant, but I really do not see how these new mechanics add any complexity to the system, outside of having to learn a few more keywords.

-

atamajakki atamajakki's picture
I wish we could get some

I wish we could get some content on simulspaces and MARGs. My players really want to do a game set largely in simulspace and there isn't enough info on them for now.

ScienceGuy ScienceGuy's picture
A modest proposal

As an alternative suggestion, instead of the rules for eidolons and (to a lesser extent) servers, what do people think about the following?

Infomorphs run more effectively on more powerful computing devices. Any given computing device is defined in this regard by three attributes:

AptitudeBonus: a set of (mental) aptitude bonuses. For example, +5 COG, or +5 to any 2 mental aptitudes

MaxEnhancements: the maximum number of Infomorph Enhancements an infomorph can run while on that device.

Speed: the speed stat of an infomorph while running on that device

(One could also add in skill bonuses etc such as the the specialised servers have)

The rationale for this is that I've always seen morph mental aptitude bonuses as coming from the physical substrate on which the ego is run (eg. a high-spec cyberbrain might give a COG bonus). The above suggestion has IMHO a better 'feel' to it than the idea of eidolons.

It also implies a kind of equivalence between general computing devices (on which infomorphs can run), and computing 'devices' which are specialist for hosting egos (cyberbrains, bio-brains)

What do people think?

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Am I the only one bothered by

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that these rules exacerbate the Infomorph/Shelljamming/cyberbrain conflict?

This proposal includes 2 different different morphs designed to be fighter pilots. Typically, in the EP setting that would mean a cyberbrain in a vehicle but eidolons can't sleeve a cyberbrain because they're allready sleeved in an eidolon. Worse, we still don't know which SPD and Initiative stats to use when an eidolon is jamming a synth morph fighter.

That's asside from the basic conflict that an info morph with mods can't run on a cyberbrain but there's no effective difference because they can still run a morph exactly as if they were sleeving it from a Ghost Rider or Puppetsock.

Cyberbrain, ghost rider, puppetsock, infomorph home device, all these terms are stupid redundant and confusing.

I think I'm going to nix either infomorphs or cyberbrains completely from my game. I'm not sure which, but one of them has to go.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
I will agree that shell

Edit: Rewriting post.

-

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:Edit:

CodeBreaker wrote:
Edit: Rewriting post.

Dude, give it to me with both barrels. This is something I'd love to be wrong about. i just can't see my way around it.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
I'm afraid it was the other

I'm afraid it was the other way around, OneTrik. The edited post was just me agreeing with you, but that is boring as it doesn't really help advance things, so I tried to have a snuffle in the books to spark a devils advocate moment. None were forthcoming.

I don't think that these new rules add any problems. I do think that they will bring to the forefront an already existing issue with jamming. Jamming is as much of an issue now as it will be post-Transhuman, it'll just be more apparent because infomorphs won't suck any more, so more people will use them.

Honestly I think the easiest fix would be to either straight out remove jamming, only let morphs be remotely puppeteer'd, or make jamming a usable but filled with disadvantages option. I agree that, as written, it doesn't make sense for someone to actually sleeve into a cyberbrain, you are almost always better off being an infomorph and just jamming your way to victory.

This is especially true because of the clarification that an infomorph moving its home device does not count as a resleeve, which is silly in my mind. It makes very little sense to me why an ego can move devices easily as an infomorph, but cannot do the same as a synthmorph.

So I will agree; the cyberbrain/infomorph shell thing is a bit too strange at the moment. But I will say that I prefer the way that infomorphs work with this update over how they worked before, if I ignore the whole 'moving devices is not resleeving' thing.

-

Mephil Mephil's picture
If you have access to the

If you have access to the server which an infomorph is running on, could you delete it? I mean, it can delete itself so with a successful infosec test you should be able to initiate that same command, right?

The new Ultimate! edition of my digitally saveable extended character sheet!

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:Am I the

OneTrikPony wrote:
Am I the only one bothered by the fact that these rules exacerbate the Infomorph/Shelljamming/cyberbrain conflict?

This proposal includes 2 different different morphs designed to be fighter pilots. Typically, in the EP setting that would mean a cyberbrain in a vehicle but eidolons can't sleeve a cyberbrain because they're allready sleeved in an eidolon. Worse, we still don't know which SPD and Initiative stats to use when an eidolon is jamming a synth morph fighter.

That's asside from the basic conflict that an info morph with mods can't run on a cyberbrain but there's no effective difference because they can still run a morph exactly as if they were sleeving it from a Ghost Rider or Puppetsock.

Cyberbrain, ghost rider, puppetsock, infomorph home device, all these terms are stupid redundant and confusing.

I think I'm going to nix either infomorphs or cyberbrains completely from my game. I'm not sure which, but one of them has to go.

I made pretty much the same comments in the playtest response thread.

I interpret RAW as you don't get shell morph aptitude bonuses and you get at max the shell's Speed. I think this makes perfect sense except for aptitude max, where the morph's limit should apply for physical actions, which isn't entirely clear.

I don't think we need to dispense with cyberbrains, they have a role. They're specialized hardware that mimics biological brains, they provide aptitude bonuses, but have aptitude maximums. Informorphs are run on general purpose hardware that give it default high speed and high aptitude maximums. The problem comes with eidolons that give aptitude bonuses equivalent to cyberbrains. I'd prefer that eidolons gave some but generally much lower aptitude bonuses. This lets each keep a specific role.

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:

This is especially true because of the clarification that an infomorph moving its home device does not count as a resleeve, which is silly in my mind. It makes very little sense to me why an ego can move devices easily as an infomorph, but cannot do the same as a synthmorph.

Infomorphs run on general purpose hardware. It "feels" the same to the ego no matter what machine executes its code.

Sleeving into a cyberbrain embeds the ego in that hardware, with its bonuses and such. Your brain architecture and body changes. Moving between identical synthmorphs shouldn't count as a resleeve, I'll give you that.

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Smokeskin wrote:CodeBreaker

Smokeskin wrote:
CodeBreaker wrote:

This is especially true because of the clarification that an infomorph moving its home device does not count as a resleeve, which is silly in my mind. It makes very little sense to me why an ego can move devices easily as an infomorph, but cannot do the same as a synthmorph.

Infomorphs run on general purpose hardware. It "feels" the same to the ego no matter what machine executes its code.

Sleeving into a cyberbrain embeds the ego in that hardware, with its bonuses and such. Your brain architecture and body changes. Moving between identical synthmorphs shouldn't count as a resleeve, I'll give you that.

My confusion over that line of thinking is that Evacuating a cyberbrain (which is essentially the exact same thing as sleeving into an infomorph), does not require integration and alienation tests. WHY?

What is the experiential difference between sleeving a synth and jamming a pod with a puppet sock? Why doesn't that require integration and alienation tests?

Assuming that an infomorph jamming a Reaper can use the reaper's aptitude bonuses then WHY is a puppet sock a better user interface for the ego than a Cyberbrain?

I was really hoping Codebreaker was going to slap me around. Actually I've been hoping that every time I post in this forum section because I'm beginning to feel like a hyper-critical asshole. I am a total EP fanboi, I've got nothing but mad love and respect for the EP Devs and authors and I really want to be excited about Transhuman.

Unfortunately I was expecting Transhuman to be a "Players Guide" which is the perfect opportunity to fix, expound, explain some of the issues with the core rules and setting. Unfortunately this is looking more and more like a WotC or Palladium Splatbook. (I can't believe I just said that, but there it is.) I am sad now.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

kindalas kindalas's picture
Enhanced Cyberbrains

I think we just need enhanced Cyberbrains that allow Elodons to be used as another layer on an ego.

So for expensive (or 20 CP) any morph with a cyber brain can have it upgraded.

The catch is that the enhanced Cyberbrains are actually able to run seed AI level programs (either young Seed AIs or programs made by more evolved Seed AI) so they get a social stigma.

And I agree Jamming needs to be worse then sleeving especially if the way that the rules line up the average ego jamming a sex bot won't notice but the killing machine jamming a reaper will know that it is much worse.

I am a Moderator of this Forum
My mod voice is red.

The Eclipse Phase Character sheet is downloadable here:
Get it here!

Mephil Mephil's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:Am I the

OneTrikPony wrote:
Am I the only one bothered by the fact that these rules exacerbate the Infomorph/Shelljamming/cyberbrain conflict?

This proposal includes 2 different different morphs designed to be fighter pilots. Typically, in the EP setting that would mean a cyberbrain in a vehicle but eidolons can't sleeve a cyberbrain because they're allready sleeved in an eidolon. Worse, we still don't know which SPD and Initiative stats to use when an eidolon is jamming a synth morph fighter.

Forgive me if I misunderstand the particular conundrum here but I don't see the problem here. I run a game where one player never sleeves into a physical body and acts as a full time infomorph. Occasionally he uses jamming however when he needs to get physical work done.

Whenever he is jamming, he is "spiritually" transferring his ego to the shell. As such, he will use the speed, aptitude bonuses, etc from the shell he is currently jamming. Except for initiative which is his own.

Theoretically, if I were to include eidolons in my game, and he decided to jam a shell, he would abandon the bonuses from his eidolon and receive any bonuses from the shell he is jamming.

OneTrikPony wrote:

That's asside from the basic conflict that an info morph with mods can't run on a cyberbrain but there's no effective difference because they can still run a morph exactly as if they were sleeving it from a Ghost Rider or Puppetsock.

You say that an infomorph with mods cannot run on a cyberbrain, which they can. You can have all the mods, but you cannot be in an eidolon.

An Eidolon is a virtual package deal with mods that you can run. Sort of like the morph version of a virtual disc.

But everything the eidolon's are made up of can be added to an infomorph who migrates to a cyberbrain.

If you are saying that you think of running an infomorph with an eidolon from a ghostrider, without an ego risiding in the cyberbrain, I would say think again. Because you cannot control a morph from a ghostrider.

If you say that you were thinking of controlling said morph by jamming it from said ghostrider, I would say you would have to abandon your eidolon bonuses, because you now occupy the morph and will use its bonuses instead.

kindalas wrote:
I think we just need enhanced Cyberbrains that allow Elodons to be used as another layer on an ego.

So for expensive (or 20 CP) any morph with a cyber brain can have it upgraded.

The catch is that the enhanced Cyberbrains are actually able to run seed AI level programs (either young Seed AIs or programs made by more evolved Seed AI) so they get a social stigma.

And I agree Jamming needs to be worse then sleeving especially if the way that the rules line up the average ego jamming a sex bot won't notice but the killing machine jamming a reaper will know that it is much worse.

A cyberbrain is just another server. A cyberbrain occupying a morph with +10 COG and a cyberbrain without a morph with an eidolon that has +10 COG is the same thing. I don't see why you would go through the trouble of having an eidolon occupying a cyberbrain that is also connected to a morph when you could just have said morph upgraded with that enhancement from the beginning.

Jamming is already harsher on the user than just sleeving into the body. When you are jamming, you need to use Pilot: Walker just to perform any action with the shell. You are limited by the shells speed for physical actions (usually 1 if not enhanced) and you suffer loads of stress if your shell is destroyed .

The new Ultimate! edition of my digitally saveable extended character sheet!

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
What if Infomorphs didn't

What if Infomorphs didn't have the -30 resistance to hacking that cyberbrains have?

What if a character jamming a morph or shell did not gain aptitude bonuses granted by the morph and had to use the lower of the two speed stats?

What if hacking a distributed infomorph were actually easier the way it's quoted to be in the proposal?

What if there were a small price in rep or credits for using public dataspace as a distributed infomorph?

What should be the default speed of a robot or shell when the stat is unlisted?

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Mephil Mephil's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:

This is especially true because of the clarification that an infomorph moving its home device does not count as a resleeve, which is silly in my mind. It makes very little sense to me why an ego can move devices easily as an infomorph, but cannot do the same as a synthmorph.

Simple. Because they are still occupying their morph, the infomorph software which they are running on.

This is like saying that the synthmorph needs to pass alienation checks every time they walk into a new room. Obviously they don't, so why should an infomorph have to do this when they are simply transferring to another database? They are still in their old "body". If they resleeved from an infomorph to an eidolon I would call for alienation and integration checks, but never when just transferring the infomorph you currently inhabit to another device.

To clarify: There is a distinct difference from transferring your EGO and transferring your infomorph in which your ego resides. An infomorph is still a morph you are sleeved in, do not forget that simply because it is virtual.

Being in your infomorph on a ghostrider and being in your infomorph on a server should be the same difference as being in a large room or in a small one.

The new Ultimate! edition of my digitally saveable extended character sheet!

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:Smokeskin

OneTrikPony wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
CodeBreaker wrote:

This is especially true because of the clarification that an infomorph moving its home device does not count as a resleeve, which is silly in my mind. It makes very little sense to me why an ego can move devices easily as an infomorph, but cannot do the same as a synthmorph.

Infomorphs run on general purpose hardware. It "feels" the same to the ego no matter what machine executes its code.

Sleeving into a cyberbrain embeds the ego in that hardware, with its bonuses and such. Your brain architecture and body changes. Moving between identical synthmorphs shouldn't count as a resleeve, I'll give you that.

My confusion over that line of thinking is that Evacuating a cyberbrain (which is essentially the exact same thing as sleeving into an infomorph), does not require integration and alienation tests. WHY?

It doesn't?

Quote:

What is the experiential difference between sleeving a synth and jamming a pod with a puppet sock? Why doesn't that require integration and alienation tests?

Assuming that an infomorph jamming a Reaper can use the reaper's aptitude bonuses then WHY is a puppet sock a better user interface for the ego than a Cyberbrain?

Per RAW you don't get the morph's aptitude bonuses by jamming it. Sleeve a synth, you get bonuses - jam it, and you don't. You need to sleeve into the brain hardware to get the bonus, and that's what causes the resleeving tests. Similarly going from a cyberbrain to infomorph changes your "brain hardware" and causes resleeving tests.

It seems consistent to me, except maybe sleeving between two identical synthmorphs.

Quote:

I was really hoping Codebreaker was going to slap me around. Actually I've been hoping that every time I post in this forum section because I'm beginning to feel like a hyper-critical asshole. I am a total EP fanboi, I've got nothing but mad love and respect for the EP Devs and authors and I really want to be excited about Transhuman.

Unfortunately I was expecting Transhuman to be a "Players Guide" which is the perfect opportunity to fix, expound, explain some of the issues with the core rules and setting. Unfortunately this is looking more and more like a WotC or Palladium Splatbook. (I can't believe I just said that, but there it is.) I am sad now.

This is just a first draft. I think they hit on some nice ideas with the infomorphs, but it has some rough edges (like the other drafts they posted) and it seems obvious that they made them way overpowered. I have faith they'll hit on a more reasonable balance before release.

So far all EP material has been of really high quality, and I believe Transhuman will be the same. This is a draft. I think we're very fortunate that they release the drafts. What we should not do is think that these drafts are final versions and begin thinking EP is going to hell in a handbasket. That will cause them to stop releasing drafts, and that's the reason most developers don't involve the community at all.

Let's give them our honest opinion, the good with the bad, and trust them to do their job of balancing and polishing stuff before release.

Mephil Mephil's picture
Core Rulebook wrote:Like

Core Rulebook wrote:
Like direct control teleoperation, the jammer’s own skills and Initiative are used in place of the drone’s AI, though the shell’s aptitude maximums apply and physical actions are limited by the shell’s Speed.

So basically, use your own stats, except for speed and your stats are also slaved by the maximum aptitudes. So jamming a case morph would cut all your aptitudes including morph bonuses above 20 to 20.

Being an infomorph that usually enjoy a max aptitude of 40 this could potentially become a problem.

The new Ultimate! edition of my digitally saveable extended character sheet!

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Mephil wrote:

Mephil wrote:

This is like saying that the synthmorph needs to pass alienation checks every time they walk into a new room. Obviously they don't, so why should an infomorph have to do this when they are simply transferring to another database? They are still in their old "body". If they resleeved from an infomorph to an eidolon I would call for alienation and integration checks, but never when just transferring the infomorph you currently inhabit to another device.

I disagree. It is as if you were in a synthmorph, and you forked yourself into an exact replica of that synthmorph. Infomorphs may be software, but they are still software that is running on a hardware substrate. When that hardware changes, when they rehost themselves, they should be required to resleeve.

They aren't just moving from the mesh equivalent of room to room. They are completely shutting themselves down, deleting themselves, and then instantiating themselves on new hardware. The equivalent of moving from room to room is accessing multiple devices.

I am not particularly against infomorphs not having to resleeve to move devices. But if they can, I don't think that it is internally consistent that someone in a case morph has to roll alienation and especially integration if they resleeve into an identical case morph. Which in the current system they do.

-

Mephil Mephil's picture
I believe our views differ

I believe our views differ because you view the ego as data that can act on its own without being in a morph.

If you fork yourself into a different synthmorph that is identical, you need to make alienation and integration tests because you are still transferring your ego. Albeit, you will receive bonuses on said roll because it is an identical morph. +30 I believe it is rule-wise.

If you draw a hard line for when you have to do integration tests, it is whenever you have to acclimate yourself to a new body.

Thus:

1. Sleeve into an infomorph, you are now occupying said morph.
2. You move this morph to a new device, it takes around 3 seconds to do, and there is nothing saying that you cannot be conscious when you do it. (since the rules state that you can exist as a sort of cloud hosting consciousness. The rules even state that there you suffer no continuity loss - which is another word of saying that you are never unconscious during the process)
3. When you arrive, you still inhabit the exact same morph you did previously, your infomorph. Your EGO has never actually transferred to a new morph. The device you are occupying doesn't matter since you cannot physically feel it, you don't see through its eyes nor do you move it with your mind. Your body is the infomorph, you interact with the world through IT and not the server you are hosted on. There is no difference in your bodily functions, there is no difference in your height or appearance or any of your aptitudes. There is simply nothing you need to grow accustomed to.

In essence, you moved from room A to room B using your morph. Which happened to be an infomorph. The confusion here is because they are using terms such as "copying and deleting yourself" when they could just have said that you use the "move file" command instead.

Moving from a cyberbrain to another cyberbrain is the eqvivalent of moving from one infomorph to another infomorph.

Quote:

They are completely shutting themselves down, deleting themselves, and then instantiating themselves on new hardware.

this is plain wrong, nowhere in the rules does it say that you need to shut yourself off as an infomorph to move to another device.

With that said, the only way I would allow a player to dodge the integration / alienation checks when moving between physical morphs would be if they ripped out the cyberbrain they were sleeved in, and then implanted it into a body that is an EXACT replica of their previous morph. That way, their ego has not moved. (no integration needed) and their body isn't different (no alienation) and if they were conscious during all this, they wouldn't need to do a contingency test either.

The new Ultimate! edition of my digitally saveable extended character sheet!

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Hmm. I do believe I may have

Hmm. I do believe I may have been convinced. I cede the point.

-

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Under the not too

Under the not too unreasonable assumption that Math Boost works like Math Boost works like Math Whiz, since large integer factorization can now be done "in an instant", with no restrictions, it seems like anyone with Math Boost can be expected to trivially crack RSA in their heads. This seems at odds with the idea that quantum computers are necessary for cracking public-key cryptography.

Electronic Charisma probably needs more restrictions written into it, or be dropped entirely. As is, it's pretty much just a blanket +10 to all social skills except Protocol and Animal Empathy. This is amplified by the fact that it's so close to the section on AGIs, and AGIs become terribly broken once you mention "blanket +10 to social skills" around them.

I don't like Mental Repair; greatly speeding up the regeneration of the core survivability stat in the game seems like it could get out of hand quite fast, just like +10 bonuses to all Stress tests would be. And, speak of the devil, Mental Resilience does just that. In addition, it also buys off one of the main disadvantages of playing an asynch. I do, however, like Mental Stability, because it simply buys you a little more time to starve off insanity with.

CodeBreaker wrote:
So only semi-seriously; Ugh, more access to good morphs with high speed. I really do dislike the RAW speed mechanic (not so bad now that I have houseruled it away). I know that infomorphs already had speed 3, but they were also kind of terrible. With infomorph like Eidolons that people might actually pick, I see a lot more frustration down the road.

So much so that I would really, really encourage Posthuman to consider adding a really big sidebar with flashing neon that gives some optional versions of speed. I quite like my initiative groups thing, and I know that other people have their own version that works well.

Edot: To be clear, I am whinging about the speed rules, not infomorphs having high speed.

I agree. Speed granting extra actions, like it is implemented in EP, is a bad mechanic because of how it completely dominates combat. On the side of mechanical balance, Speed 2 doubles your damage output, and on the side of pure mechanics, it also doubles the time a PC/NPC takes to act per turn, which makes the game slow down for everyone else.

The simplest fix I can imagine is to give everyone Speed 3 by default, and increase the Speed Maximum to 6. That way, at least, the difference between +0 Speed and +1 Speed isn't as profound, though Speed still remains completely broken as a mechanic.

This isn't exclusive to EP though; it's the same with Shadowrun, World of Darkness and Exalted - an extra action when you only have one to start with is an immense bonus.

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I don't get why everyone

I don't get why everyone dislikes Speed so much. Having a gun, armor, invisibility cloak, radar etc. also provides massive advantages. That's the nature of technology.

lets adapt lets adapt's picture
Yeah, for the record, I think

Yeah, for the record, I think speed is fine as is.

Mephil Mephil's picture
Quote: I don't get why

Quote:
I don't get why everyone dislikes Speed so much. Having a gun, armor, invisibility cloak, radar etc. also provides massive advantages. That's the nature of technology.

This. Also, I have no idea where people are coming from having characters with 16 actions per round and shit like that. The max physical actions anyone is capable of is 4, it says so in the book even - regardless of your equipped shit. Sure, you can have extra mental actions for perception checks and *mesh actions* (this needs to be defined exactly what it entails) which really amounts to either, I GUESS depending on ruling:

Hacking
Researching
Using knowledge skills
Using perception

All can be helpful, but rarely clogs up in-game time with rounds and shit in battle. Which is the only place where the speed mechanic is used.

I also don't get it with people saying "if X is Y then why don't people always use it" not everybody has the kind of cash in Eclipse phase to simply buy any kind of body like you can when you create your character. Not everybody die on demand like your firewall sentinel. If someone dies, a body will most likely take years to reclaim, if ever! A psychosurgeon gets about 1000 credits a MONTH working with this highly complex profession, which would mean at least 30-60 months to get a high grade biomorph.

Quote:
"Why do people sleeve in bodies when they can just use jamming!"

Because not everybody is pro at using Pilot:Walker, which is needed to control the shell that is being jammed. Because some people actually enjoy being (trans)human. Constantly jamming a shell will distance you even further away from what it means to be human, which is a precious thing in Eclipse Phase, where most humans still wish to be human, with the occasional extremists who stand on either end of the scale.

Rule wise, I have no problem with jamming. Unlike sleeving, you need to use Pilot skills to move it around, since a wireless connection is needed, someone could simply use a jamming device to cut you off and you lose your body right then and there. Hell they'll steal it from you and sell it on the black market and then you're back to indenture to get a new one!

Not only that but you'll gain a healthy 1D10 stress points as well as the connection breaks due to destruction, good times right? We all know mental damage is the real danger anyway. Its even worse if you do it from a ghostrider in said morph, then you die physically AND take mental damage as you are ejected.

Eclipse phase is all about being overpowered, and still dying. Even the most armored up badass player can die in one full-auto called shot. I like this, it keeps the players on their toes, especially since storytellers don't have to be afraid to kill off their players at any time.

And lastly, this is not some e-sport we're talking about. There is no balance needed, balance is unrealistic and has no place in Eclipse Phase.

EDIT:
I am not against changing or clarifying the rules regarding jamming however since there seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding its mechanics. For one, I would probably introduce alienation tests to get used to your new form when jamming. (no integration though, you aren't actually moving your ego)

The new Ultimate! edition of my digitally saveable extended character sheet!

ScienceGuy ScienceGuy's picture
Speed/Jamming

I'm fine with the speed mechanic per se for physical actions. (I like that a combat spec morph can make several times as many actions as a more basic model; feels appropriate to the genre).

In our group, however, we've found the extra actions mechanic to be a bit cumbersome. We also find that combat can be a bit boring for the non-combat guys if we use the full rules, simply because if a non-combat PC has only a single physical action per round, they can then easily be waiting for several other characters to resolve 4 physical actions and 8 mental/online actions before they get to act again.

(our gaming group is quite big, so this is particularly an issue for us)

We resolve this via a houserule, so that any character can only have a max of 4 actions per round in total, and that neurachem/enhanced reflexes don't stack with mental speed/multi-tasking. So, a PC can have 3 physical actions (neurachem lvl 2), or 1 physical action + 2 mental actions (multi-tasking or mental speed) etc. This works nicely for us, and is a bit more streamlined that the actual rules. IMHO, of course :-)

As regards Jamming, we don't really use it but if we did I suspect we'd just run with the ruling that you can jam a morph, but don't get any of the morph bonuses (and maybe don't benefit from its implants??). That and the 1d10 stress damage for a disconnection seem reasonable to me.

It does sounds like a clarifying example would be useful in 'Transhuman', though :-)

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
The reason I don't like the

The reason I don't like the current speed mechanic is because, when it comes to character optimisation, it is always the best choice. There is never, ever, ever a time when you can ask yourself 'How could I make my character better at this' and the best answer is not 'Stack speed!'. Actually stacking Moxie might be slightly better, but that is fine, because Moxie is supposed to be stupidly powerful, its the 'Get out of shit free' card.

You can model extremely fast characters in better ways. Ways that do not condemn the characters who don't stack speed to being forced to sit around the table for a half hour while the combat monkeys work their way through the first action turn.

My experience with Eclipse Phase is basically 'Everyone acts in first phase, combat is basically over by the third'. The winning side has either killed everything or site, or damaged everything enough that it becomes clean up city. So if you are someone who hasn't specifically set them selves up to be useful in combat, you act once and then you can basically leave the table and play Pokemon on your iPhone until things are done.

That sucks.

Now the trouble might be that I come from a position of wanting the game system to be balanced, and I am also willing to sacrifice verisimilitude in how well the game connects to the setting to do so. It might make sense that some characters can act four times for every one that the dopey scientist can. But I don't think that it promotes fun for anyone but the 4/12 speed fiend character.

I don't want the speed mechanic completely rewritten, the current version expunged from all creation for all of time (mostly because I think I might be the one that ends up writing up an errata file for past material should that happen...). But I would love to see a little sidebar called Optional Rules: Speed that gives us a few official options, if only because I think that other people might get use out of it. I probably wouldn't, I have already redone speed in my games.

Edit: And also because the current speed rules are incomplete! They currently have no influence over task actions. There aren't any rules in the game that say that having a higher speed lets you perform task actions better. Having more actions per turn doesn't make you faster at them, it doesn't let you do anything other than concentrate on the task action while you are doing it, nothing.

This is an extremely easy thing to fix (Task action time frames are divided by your speed. Bam! Fixed.). There is no reason not to include something to that affect in a sidebar.

-

Mephil Mephil's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:

Edit: And also because the current speed rules are incomplete! They currently have no influence over task actions. There aren't any rules in the game that say that having a higher speed lets you perform task actions better. Having more actions per turn doesn't make you faster at them, it doesn't let you do anything other than concentrate on the task action while you are doing it, nothing.

This is an extremely easy thing to fix (Task action time frames are divided by your speed. Bam! Fixed.). There is no reason not to include something to that affect in a sidebar.

Speed measures how many *different* things you can accomplish in 3 seconds. A task action requires you to do *one* thing which takes X-amount of time depending on the storyteller. So speed either has to be accounted for by the storyteller when he decides how long it takes, or have no effect at all since the character only focuses on one thing anyway.

A task action is much more influenced by how *well* you perform said task rather than how fast you can do it anyway, and doing it faster requires you to use the rushing the job mechanic.

In fact, as an off-shoot on this, if you have a character that has only mental actions - that character could very well hack in battle using these mechanics, bringing their usefulness up to speed with the gun-nuts.

Brute force hacking someone in 1 round:
80 Infosec skill (20 rounds to brute force hack someone)
-60 rushing the job (20 skill, -60% timeframe, 8 rounds)
+30 brute force (50 skill)
Moxie to remove negative modifiers (skill at 99)
-10% task action timeframe every 10 MoS. - needs another 40% to get it down to 1 round.
So a MoS 40+ to pull it off.

My reasoning in regards to speed:
Someone who has the quick cobra-like reflexes required to hit three bottles thrown at them in quick succession before they hit the ground, does not necessarily have the capability to change tires on a car any faster than anyone else. Doing such a task faster has more to do with skill and technique rather than quick reflexes.

Edit: PS, this is just how I have interpreted the rules obviously. And Codebreaker - please don't think I am targeting you specifically now. You are just bringing up thrilling subjects that I have been dying to discuss ; )

The new Ultimate! edition of my digitally saveable extended character sheet!

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:The reason

CodeBreaker wrote:
The reason I don't like the current speed mechanic is because, when it comes to character optimisation, it is always the best choice. There is never, ever, ever a time when you can ask yourself 'How could I make my character better at this' and the best answer is not 'Stack speed!'.
[...]
You can model extremely fast characters in better ways. Ways that do not condemn the characters who don't stack speed to being forced to sit around the table for a half hour while the combat monkeys work their way through the first action turn.

There are two different things brought up here.

One is the effectiveness of Speed. I honestly don't have a problem with that, like I don't have a problem with the best way to improve accuracy is to "stack skill". Being able to shoot more with the same accuracy in the same time frame is for obvious reasons awesome.

The other is "hogging gametime". You have more of a point here. However, the scientist and face that didn't stack speed is likely hogging the game time during other types of encounters. I'm not sure it is a problem - however, I would in no way mind something that sped up combat.

Quote:

My experience with Eclipse Phase is basically 'Everyone acts in first phase, combat is basically over by the third'. The winning side has either killed everything or site, or damaged everything enough that it becomes clean up city.

It sounds like you're doing the "everyone stands around shooting at eachoter". If you instead do the "stay in cover, go on full defense when fired upon, disengage unless you're confident you'll win", it works out differently.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Smokeskin wrote:

Smokeskin wrote:

The other is "hogging gametime". You have more of a point here. However, the scientist and face that didn't stack speed is likely hogging the game time during other types of encounters. I'm not sure it is a problem - however, I would in no way mind something that sped up combat.

My primary issue is the action economy one. I don't really mind there being ways for characters who want to be really good at something being insanely good at something. That is one of the things about Eclipse Phase that I really like.

I wouldn't have nearly as much of an issue with speed if it wasn't a nill sum game. You either increase speed, or you do nothing during the downtime when everyone else is having fun. You can talk amongst yourselves, you can give OOC advise to the other players (Tacnet hivemind go!), but for the most part you sit there and you watch. I don't like it when my games make players sit there and watch the others do kickass stuff for potentially substantial, and critical, periods of time.

For example: I would be fine if speed lets you act in extra action phases, but if you don't have speed you can act in those phases at a large disadvantage (-30/-20 penalty, stacking for each phase acted in large.) Then the other players without the speed implants at least have some choice, and have to be aware of what is happening, rather than just zoning out completely.

Edit: And on 'increasing skill to increase accuracy'. I'm not sure, because I suck at math, but isn't it still better to increase your speed if you want to hit things more often? You fire more shots, you have more dice rolls, and the change in accuracy from one dice roll at 85 and two dice rolls at 75 favours the 75, doesn't it?

Edit2: I'm sorry developer people, I think I pulled this topic really off course.

Edit3: Don't worry about telling me I'm wrong Mephil, I have been doing the same thing to other people on these forums for three years now :D. It is nice to be on the other side every so often.

-

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Mephil wrote:I am not against

Mephil wrote:
I am not against changing or clarifying the rules regarding jamming however since there seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding its mechanics.

Ironic you should say so since you and I interperet page 196 completely differently.
Don't get me wrong; I like the way you read it but Why would Pilot:Walker ever be used when Jamming? You know it's different than remote control right?

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Erenthia Erenthia's picture
Well that's what the Pilot

Well that's what the Pilot skill says (Page 183)

"You use Pilot skill whenever you
need to maneuver, control, or avoid crashing a vehicle,
whether you are in the pilot’s seat, remote controlling
a robot, or directly jamming a vehicle with VR"

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:

Edit: And on 'increasing skill to increase accuracy'. I'm not sure, because I suck at math, but isn't it still better to increase your speed if you want to hit things more often? You fire more shots, you have more dice rolls, and the change in accuracy from one dice roll at 85 and two dice rolls at 75 favours the 75, doesn't it?

This is why these kinds of Speed mechanics tend to be insanely broken. If your skill is at 40, you will, on average, deal 40% of your weapons damage with every attack. Increase Speed to 2, and you'll deal twice that amount of damage. The equivalent increase in skill needed would be 40 points, up to 80, worth about 60 CP, a rather significant number. Once you hit 50 with a skill, increasing Speed to 2 will always be worth more than increasing that skill, in terms of the expected value of your damage.

Having 42 points in a skill and Speed 4 is generally preferable to having 98 in that skill, because the total damage output over time will be higher.

That's after modifiers, incidentally. So if we assume maximum gear bonuses and no aiming, Kinetic Weapons 22 and Speed 4 is superior to Kinetic Weapons 98 Speed 1 if you have homing bullets in an average gun.

So, yeah, this is why "multiple attack" rules tend to be bad for balance, since they tend to make whatever grants them be the One Stat To Rule Them All, which narrows the game mechanically.

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Erenthia wrote:Well that's

Erenthia wrote:
Well that's what the Pilot skill says (Page 183)

"You use Pilot skill whenever you
need to maneuver, control, or avoid crashing a vehicle,
whether you are in the pilot’s seat, remote controlling
a robot, or directly jamming a vehicle with VR"

Are you sure about that? We're talking about using Pilot:Walker when jamming a Worker Pod a Case or a Synth? You can argue that I'm creating my own problem but using a pilot skill to jam a biomorph just goes against how I envision the game and it really flies in the face of the idea of "becoming the drone".

LatwPIAT wrote:
Having 42 points in a skill and Speed 4 is generally preferable to having 98 in that skill, because the total damage output over time will be higher.

[:sigh] [:Headesk] That. Is. NOT. Broken.
[Rantmode]

Spoiler: Highlight to view

That's not broken it is the true and sensible way to simulate a situation where some people are four times faster than others. Some people are faster, that's just the way it is. That might be cumbersome for *some* people to play but it isn't an issue with my groups and it isn't broken.
Because
A. this is not monopoly or risk
B. Every character has access to the tech at exactly the same cost, barred, only rarely, by the prohibitions of the Role people *choose* to play.
C. I'm pretty sure that, complaining that speed boosting gear facilitates doing damage only for those who have it is exactly equivalent to complaining that automatic weapons facilitate doing damage only for those who have them.
D. All actions are equal. By this I mean, it doesn't matter if you have one character with 4 actions or 4 character's with one action. Except that the Bot jammer character with 3 drones has several times the durability and tactical movement options of the single character.
E. The game provides multiple other avenues for a character to be involved in a Multiple Phase Action Turn; Forking, Drones, Their MUSE, any other AI that they control, Free Actions, Movement, Defense, and please let's not forget that Infomorphs automatically have multiple actions.

People should stop pretending that Neurachem and Reflex Booster's bonus to the SPD stat are the only way to increase a characters involvment in an Action Turn. Analysis of *This* game on the merits of who throws more damage dice per turn is 9 kinds of stupid. I laugh at the idea that reducing all characters to SPD 1 would have a "ballancing" effect on the game. Because anything with an electronic brain can fork, effectively instantly. So now you've got one player in control of 4 short term betaforks with one action per turn against a player in a Fury or Menton with one action per turn. How Does this not MAKE YOUR ISSUES WORSE?

Any player that disengages in my game because their morph only has SPD 1 is simply not trying to play or, especially ROLE PLAY, and can GTFO! On the flip side, any GM that allows a multiple action player to monopolize great chunks of table time (2 minutes per action should be the absolute maximum) is creating the problem of player disengagement and needs to learn to ramrod that shit through or step aside.

Anyone who want's to argue that the technology to double or quadrupe the speed at which people can think and operate can't exist should be free to do so, but i challenge you to explain why that limitation should apply to digital minds. IMO It would make this setting silly and antiquated.

[/Rantmode]

To bring the discussion back to something remotely related to the intended subject. Infomorphs and their Eidolon brothers act in multiple Phases. A speed 3 gunbunny acts in multiple action phases. Suposedly Infomorphs are "Limited" to mental and online actions while the sleeved character has a potentially greater effect on the physical world. That does not hold true because jamming and remote control of physical things is an online action.

Eidolons seem to be scary overpowered because they have the benefits of a morph (aptitude bonuses) while naturally having the ability to act in multiple action phases and the application of one piece of gear; Multitasking or Mental speed, doubles their actions from 4 to 8. This is not a new issue. Infomorphs have always been incredibly powerful in this way.

Before:
5CPInfomorph (free) +5CP gear. = 6 Actions / Turn
55CP Agent 50cp + 5cp gear. = 8 actions / turn +aptitude bonuses
85CP Remade 60cp, +20cp gear + 5cp gear = 6 actions / turn + atptitude bonuses

As you can see Eidolons actually come backward at character cost equivelancy. They actually help.
Am I getting something wrong here?

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Mephil Mephil's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:Erenthia

OneTrikPony wrote:
Erenthia wrote:
Well that's what the Pilot skill says (Page 183)

"You use Pilot skill whenever you
need to maneuver, control, or avoid crashing a vehicle,
whether you are in the pilot’s seat, remote controlling
a robot, or directly jamming a vehicle with VR"

Are you sure about that? We're talking about using Pilot:Walker when jamming a Worker Pod a Case or a Synth? You can argue that I'm creating my own problem but using a pilot skill to jam a biomorph just goes against how I envision the game and it really flies in the face of the idea of "becoming the drone".

This is the last thread derailing message I am going to write, the discussion should probably be moved elsewhere afterwards if needed to be discussed further.

You and I have different views of what jamming actually is. Jamming to me isn't sleeving into the body, it is another version of remote control via virtual reality and XP feeds, its like playing a game in a simulspace only at the same time a real body somewhere is doing exactly what you do. You are never actually sleeved, you aren't there - you are just experiencing the gist of it through virtual reality environments and getting the sensations involved through XP. You are in fact so immersed in these sensations that you receive a -60 on your own perception checks IRL.

As such, you need to use the pilot skill, since you aren't in fact sleeved with the body - but more like playing a video game. If remote controlling is the equivalent of using a joystick today, then jamming is what using an Oculus Rift is. It doesn't matter if it is a biomorph, steering a video game character that is a humanoid robot or is actually a human in the flesh is not different from each other. Its not your body, you aren't in it - you are just puppeteering a body through a puppet sock. Which I assume are generally rarely used in biomorphs anyway.

The new Ultimate! edition of my digitally saveable extended character sheet!

Trinary Trinary's picture
Topic shift

Back on target; I've noticed a slight... redundancy? In the Plug-ins section it says that you can install any program as a plug-in.

Quote:
Almost any software item can be installed as a plugin, including standard programs, scorchers, and skillsofts (pp. 331-332, EP).

What, then, is the point of the Virtual Skillware plug-in; which has a High cost and a limit on how many points of skillsofts you can have slotted at once? It can't be speed (installing a plug-in is a Complex Action), cost efficiency (why pay for High if you don't need it) or storage space (since all plug-ins are dragged along with a moving Infomorph when it hops systems)

BlackJaw BlackJaw's picture
Thoughts

1) I don't think you're doing the game any favors defining a new term like Eidolon. They are essentially variant Informorphs, and as such, I'd simply call them that. "Slave Infomorph" and "Sage Informoprh" and list them as simply new morphs, with all the inherent issues in sleeving into them, restrictions in how many you can take at character start, etc.

2) I really like the basic concept of Upgrades and Plugins, but I don't think they are described as clearly as they could be. To me, it sounds like Upgrades are a form of software usable by Infomorphs or anyone using a cyberbrain, unless otherwise stated (as some of them note they don't work the same in cyberbrains.) Upgrades appear to be simple be plugins that need to be customized for the user, and are unique to that ego once customized.

3) I agree with previous commenters that plugins (including upgrades) that essentially duplicate existing gear or traits should simply reference those traits. Mathboost, Hyper-linguist, and Edict Memory don't need to be defined again beyond noting if they are Upgrades or Simple Plugins.

4) The CP cost for integrating upgrades/plugins into an ego confuse me a bit. It seems to imply that doing so makes the feature a permanent part of the ego and that doing so would allow it to be used even when sleeved in a biological morph. That's fine in concept, but I think you'd be better served for clarity sake by simply making them all simply new Traits, and then just the plugins/upgrades simply reference the trait. Essentially the same advice I just gave in topic 3.

5) If Upgrades must be customized for the individual ego, do I need spend more to buy the basic package? IE: Right now we have the price to buy (including customization) an upgrade for an ego, but what if I want the base code or blueprint so I can patch/customize Compliant Mind onto any other egos using the rules you've included for doing so? Does that cost more the same way that Blueprints for a gun cost more than one gun?

6) I'm not concerned with Eidolons getting speed bonuses because all the speed bonuses talked about here simply duplicate existing physical gear from the core book.

7) I like the server ideas, but they could use prices and descriptions for conditions to use them. Can I run a Lockbox on a Ghostrider module or is it a larger bulkier server? Either way, how much does it cost?

8) I think it would be beneficial to include a list of what systems can run an Infomorph/Eidolon. My understanding is that Cyberbrains are generally computer augmented semi-organic or hardware based brain-stem emulations into which on is sleeved, while ghostrider modules or mesh inserts are 100% computer spaces where an emulation (infomorph) can operate.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
*Reposted from another thread

*Reposted from another thread.

I think I was unsure before, but now I don't think I like Eidolons anymore. I think that aptitude bonuses are things that could be produced by lots of processing power, perhaps creating bonuses greater than what is possible with normal morphs. Normal morphs have size limits, but informorphs could get immense processing power from private servers and the mesh itself. It might not be as efficient as with normal morphs with specialized hardware, but I think it should be possible to get better results than with normal morphs, and it might be easier to switch aptitude bonuses as well.

I don't know if its too late to change things, but I would like it if this could be considered.

Starkiller Starkiller's picture
DivineWrath wrote:*Reposted

DivineWrath wrote:
*Reposted from another thread.

I think I was unsure before, but now I don't think I like Eidolons anymore. I think that aptitude bonuses are things that could be produced by lots of processing power, perhaps creating bonuses greater than what is possible with normal morphs. Normal morphs have size limits, but informorphs could get immense processing power from private servers and the mesh itself. It might not be as efficient as with normal morphs with specialized hardware, but I think it should be possible to get better results than with normal morphs, and it might be easier to switch aptitude bonuses as well.


Maybe you need some particular software infrastructure to use that processing power otherwise you just waste it.