Kickstarter Anarchist/Revolution RPG: Sigmata

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kingsley_zissou kingsley_zissou's picture
Kickstarter Anarchist/Revolution RPG: Sigmata

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2089483951/sigmata-this-signal-kills-fascists

Just signed up for this kickstarter, and it looks like it overlaps a bunch with EP. Leftist roleplaying, heavy violence, post/transhumans (though in a setting before the internet). Check it out.

Eric8344 Eric8344's picture
Oh boy, let's take the worst

Oh boy, let's take the worst element of Eclipse Phase- the leftist political wankery- make the game completely about it and impossible to change or ignore, all while removing the interesting hard sci-fi elements that make the setting enjoyable for those who don't care for leftism! No thank you!

o11o1 o11o1's picture
That just means that sigmata

That just means that sigmata is a game for a fairly niche group of people. Nothing wrong with that on it's face, and I know a guy who might actually be into it.

It's not everyone's cup of tea, naturally.

A slight smell of ions....

Eric8344 Eric8344's picture
Yup, there's definitely a

Yup, there's definitely a market for it, but it's not for me! I don't think politics has ever been handled well in any RPG ever, mostly because it's difficult to be nuanced and subtle enough to grasp and portray different ideologies accurately and without bias.

Baribal Baribal's picture
And here I thought that

And here I thought that "fighting oppressive fascist regimes is fun" was a concept for which a broad consensus existed in games.

Morgan's Butchery | Body bank, morph individualization and upgrades | Psychotherapy and Psychosurgery, therapeutic and recreational | http://eclipsephase.com/comment/59484#comment-59484

Eric8344 Eric8344's picture
Yes, but how is "fascism"

Yes, but how is "fascism" defined, and how is the resistance portrayed? Because typically "fascism" really translates to "political opinions I don't like" and rather than getting a mature view of various political ideologies, we get a bunch of caricatures of varying degrees of cringyness. They'd really be better off not being political, and make it just about a generic resistance fighting a generic dictatorship, if they aren't going to attempt to handle it in a mature manner.
But again, I'm not the target audience! If this is for you, then great!- to each their own.

sysop sysop's picture
I usually work with the

I usually work with the definition per Ur-Fascism as outlined here:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

If a serious look at that list makes you uncomfortable about the current state of the world, and I think it's fair to say it should, then it's worth remembering that speculative fiction is meant to be written in dialogue with current events. Both a mirror and warning.

I fix broken things. If you need something fixed, mention it on the suggestions board.
I also sometimes speak as website administrator and/ moderator.

Eric8344 Eric8344's picture
sysop wrote:

sysop wrote:

If a serious look at that list makes you uncomfortable about the current state of the world, and I think it's fair to say it should, then it's worth remembering that speculative fiction is meant to be written in dialogue with current events. Both a mirror and warning.

That's exactly the problem- if you honestly believe that America is fascist or becoming fascist, you're being alarmist and ridiculous. Eco's definitions are extremely broad and apply to pretty much any Right-wing ideology. All conservatives follow a "cult of tradition" because that is the essence of being conservative!

I can point to the fact that the US has a social welfare system and use this as proof that we are run by secret communists, but obviously that would be a ridiculous caricature. I could make a game where everyone plays as underground resistance fighters trying to topple a communist regime which is nothing more than a straw-man of political views I don't like- but why should I? What possible purpose does "discourse" like that serve beyond encouraging and normalizing violence against "communists?"

I'm of the opinion politics in games should be as nuanced and neutral as possible, because I don't care for demonizing political enemies and encouraging polarization. I also think it'd be rather boring, since there's no way to really explore ideas when they are presented as objectively good or evil. If you don't mind politically on-the-nose games that's fine; there's absolutely a market for it. It's just not for me and a whole lot of other people.

GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Baribal wrote:And here I

Baribal wrote:
And here I thought that "fighting oppressive fascist regimes is fun" was a concept for which a broad consensus existed in games.

Not in a world where people are asking questions like "what even is fascism" or make statements like "typically fascism is used to say you don't like someones politics" while ignoring all the dogwhistles floating around.

Quote:
Eco's definitions are extremely broad and apply to pretty much any Right-wing ideology.

Gee, i wonder why Right-Wing ideology tends to easily float over to fascism. (Spoiler: In german we do call them "Radical Right" for a reason.)

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I can point to the fact that the US has a social welfare system and use this as proof that we are run by secret communists

You could, and you'd be wrong.

Quote:
I could make a game where everyone plays as underground resistance fighters trying to topple a communist regime which is nothing more than a straw-man of political views I don't like- but why should I? What possible purpose does "discourse" like that serve beyond encouraging and normalizing violence against "communists?"

Is this whataboutism? It reads a lot like whataboutism ignoring the end-goals of communist and fascist ideology. Combined with asking what fascism is, that does paint a picture.
Quote:
I'm of the opinion politics in games should be as nuanced and neutral as possible

That's just your opinion, mate. I for my part am glad we get some serious questions asked by the art we consume and engage with.
Quote:
I also think it'd be rather boring, since there's no way to really explore ideas when they are presented as objectively good or evil.

Do you like the horseshoe theory too?
Quote:
If you don't mind politically on-the-nose games that's fine; there's absolutely a market for it.

Why are you in an Eclipse Phase forum then, because this is probably one of the more politically charged games out there, especially with it's heavy leftist slant. I mean, there's tons of threads crying foul about how Ultimates and Jovians are misportrayed (though, that toned down a bit after MRAs got banned, wonder if there's a connection).
Eric8344 Eric8344's picture
GreyBrother wrote:Baribal

GreyBrother wrote:
Baribal wrote:
And here I thought that "fighting oppressive fascist regimes is fun" was a concept for which a broad consensus existed in games.

Not in a world where people are asking questions like "what even is fascism" or make statements like "typically fascism is used to say you don't like someones politics" while ignoring all the dogwhistles floating around.

What "dogwhistles?" What, specifically, are you even referring to? I'm willing to bet these "fascist dogwhistles" are things like disagreeing with radical leftist ideology.

Quote:
Eco's definitions are extremely broad and apply to pretty much any Right-wing ideology.

Quote:
Gee, i wonder why Right-Wing ideology tends to easily float over to fascism. (Spoiler: In german we do call them "Radical Right" for a reason.)

Hmm, I guess that makes sense! Moderate opposition to leftism really translates to fascism.

Quote:
I can point to the fact that the US has a social welfare system and use this as proof that we are run by secret communists

Quote:
You could, and you'd be wrong.

That makes sense, moderate progressive policies obviously are not the same as totalitarian socialism. Hey, wait a minute!

Quote:
I could make a game where everyone plays as underground resistance fighters trying to topple a communist regime which is nothing more than a straw-man of political views I don't like- but why should I? What possible purpose does "discourse" like that serve beyond encouraging and normalizing violence against "communists?"

Quote:
Is this whataboutism? It reads a lot like whataboutism ignoring the end-goals of communist and fascist ideology. Combined with asking what fascism is, that does paint a picture.

Not everyone agrees with the end-goals of communism. For example, anyone who isn't a communist. That doesn't make them fascists.

Quote:
I'm of the opinion politics in games should be as nuanced and neutral as possible

Quote:
That's just your opinion, mate. I for my part am glad we get some serious questions asked by the art we consume and engage with.

Serious "questions" like, "Anyone who disagrees with me is a SECRET Nazi or Nazi sympathizer" and of course, "Political violence and suppression is fine against Nazis, who to reiterate, is defined as anyone who disagrees with me." Even if we accept that this really is trying to explore political ideologies, if it isn't done with an even hand then what even is the point beyond mental masturbation about how your own particular beliefs are right?

Quote:
I also think it'd be rather boring, since there's no way to really explore ideas when they are presented as objectively good or evil.

Quote:
Do you like the horseshoe theory too?

No. I think fascism and communism, like every other ideology, have unique ideals and values which appeal to different people. I do believe that extremists use similar tactics in general, which is what makes them extremists.

Quote:
If you don't mind politically on-the-nose games that's fine; there's absolutely a market for it.

Quote:
Why are you in an Eclipse Phase forum then, because this is probably one of the more politically charged games out there, especially with it's heavy leftist slant. I mean, there's tons of threads crying foul about how Ultimates and Jovians are misportrayed (though, that toned down a bit after MRAs got banned, wonder if there's a connection).

1. I like EP for the sci-fi, horror, and espionage elements. My group just ignores the politics. When we need to involve them, I try to nuance it a bit so they're actually interesting.
2. If you like politically-slanted games, that's fine. Nowhere have I said that's a bad thing- I've only said why I don't care for them.
3. Even if you do like political games, wouldn't it be more interesting to actually engage with different ideas, rather than wank yourself off about how oh-so-great your own beliefs are?

Look, at this point we're veering off-topic. OP posted a link to a game he thought would be interesting, and I gave my personal opinion on it. If you want to debate politics or post conspiracy theories about how milquetoast conservatives are totally SECRET fascists, let's do so in direct messages.

Libertad Libertad's picture
I don't see how this game is

I don't see how this game is explicitly leftist. According to this Reddit AMA the revolutionary groups includes a disparate alliance of folks, including wealthy entrepreneurs and right-wing militia groups who have their own reasons for opposing the fascist regime: https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/7hu1y1/ama_im_chad_author_of_cryptomancer_and_the/

Quote by creator: "SIGMATA's unlikely Resistance was designed to purposely disorient and discomfort, to reinforce the difficulty of maintaining a popular front, and reinforce how powerful and seductive the impulses of sectarianism is. It's also done to remind people that the "groups" we talk about in politics are rarely monolithic, and there are opportunities for aggressive counter-recruitment within traditionally fash-dominated spaces if put on our empathy goggles for a moment. Sectarianism is tyranny's best friend."

A good real-world example is China during World War 2. Chinese nationalists, communists, and even British aid (who were also imperialists) coordinated efforts in fighting Japanese fascists. Only after the war did they turn on each other, but at the moment they put aside their differences against the greater evil.

Although Godwin's Law is quite abused, I am a bit worried that Eric's initial post automatically equated anti-Nazi to leftism and doesn't care for "political games" in spite of playing Eclipse Phase where politics is baked into the setting everywhere.

Being anti-Nazi means that you're a normal fucking person.

It reminds me of the Wolfenstein: New Colossus drama where actual alt-right shitheads were screeching that the game was anti-white even though most of the anti-Nazi fighters were white themselves. Five or ten years ago anti-fascist sentiment was apolitical. It's due to the influence of the alt-right, like Steve Bannon; the last participants in WW2 and the Holocaust literally dying of old age therefore you have more edgy kids without living relatives to relate to them the horrors of that era; with a million other issues that fascist talking points are once again creeping their way into mainstream political discourse.

I advise checking out these videos as good examples of fascists masquerading as typical right-wingers to understand why games like Sigmata are a good counterbalance if performed well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUbxVfSqtt8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx4BVGPkdzk

https://www.forbes.com/sites/janetwburns/2017/10/06/breitbart-emails-trace-neo-nazi-moves-of-steve-bannon-milo-yiannopoulos-report/#371601cd925c

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/steve-bannon-camp-of-the-saints-immigration_us_58b75206e4b0284854b3dc03


"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."
~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

kindalas kindalas's picture
Eric8344 wrote:GreyBrother

Eric8344 wrote:
GreyBrother wrote:
Baribal wrote:
And here I thought that "fighting oppressive fascist regimes is fun" was a concept for which a broad consensus existed in games.

Not in a world where people are asking questions like "what even is fascism" or make statements like "typically fascism is used to say you don't like someones politics" while ignoring all the dogwhistles floating around.

What "dogwhistles?" What, specifically, are you even referring to? I'm willing to bet these "fascist dogwhistles" are things like disagreeing with radical leftist ideology.

Quote:
Eco's definitions are extremely broad and apply to pretty much any Right-wing ideology.

Quote:
Gee, i wonder why Right-Wing ideology tends to easily float over to fascism. (Spoiler: In german we do call them "Radical Right" for a reason.)

Hmm, I guess that makes sense! Moderate opposition to leftism really translates to fascism.

Quote:
I can point to the fact that the US has a social welfare system and use this as proof that we are run by secret communists

Quote:
You could, and you'd be wrong.

That makes sense, moderate progressive policies obviously are not the same as totalitarian socialism. Hey, wait a minute!

Quote:
I could make a game where everyone plays as underground resistance fighters trying to topple a communist regime which is nothing more than a straw-man of political views I don't like- but why should I? What possible purpose does "discourse" like that serve beyond encouraging and normalizing violence against "communists?"

Quote:
Is this whataboutism? It reads a lot like whataboutism ignoring the end-goals of communist and fascist ideology. Combined with asking what fascism is, that does paint a picture.

Not everyone agrees with the end-goals of communism. For example, anyone who isn't a communist. That doesn't make them fascists.

Quote:
I'm of the opinion politics in games should be as nuanced and neutral as possible

Quote:
That's just your opinion, mate. I for my part am glad we get some serious questions asked by the art we consume and engage with.

Serious "questions" like, "Anyone who disagrees with me is a SECRET Nazi or Nazi sympathizer" and of course, "Political violence and suppression is fine against Nazis, who to reiterate, is defined as anyone who disagrees with me." Even if we accept that this really is trying to explore political ideologies, if it isn't done with an even hand then what even is the point beyond mental masturbation about how your own particular beliefs are right?

Quote:
I also think it'd be rather boring, since there's no way to really explore ideas when they are presented as objectively good or evil.

Quote:
Do you like the horseshoe theory too?

No. I think fascism and communism, like every other ideology, have unique ideals and values which appeal to different people. I do believe that extremists use similar tactics in general, which is what makes them extremists.

Quote:
If you don't mind politically on-the-nose games that's fine; there's absolutely a market for it.

Quote:
Why are you in an Eclipse Phase forum then, because this is probably one of the more politically charged games out there, especially with it's heavy leftist slant. I mean, there's tons of threads crying foul about how Ultimates and Jovians are misportrayed (though, that toned down a bit after MRAs got banned, wonder if there's a connection).

1. I like EP for the sci-fi, horror, and espionage elements. My group just ignores the politics. When we need to involve them, I try to nuance it a bit so they're actually interesting.
2. If you like politically-slanted games, that's fine. Nowhere have I said that's a bad thing- I've only said why I don't care for them.
3. Even if you do like political games, wouldn't it be more interesting to actually engage with different ideas, rather than wank yourself off about how oh-so-great your own beliefs are?

Look, at this point we're veering off-topic. OP posted a link to a game he thought would be interesting, and I gave my personal opinion on it. If you want to debate politics or post conspiracy theories about how milquetoast conservatives are totally SECRET fascists, let's do so in direct messages.

You have gone out of your way to insult and demean a large number of people with your comments.

You have taken people out of context to derail their points and you have gone out an waved the "We're off topic flag" after getting your last word in.

Take a few weeks to reevaluate how you interact with people online.

I am a Moderator of this Forum
My mod voice is red.

The Eclipse Phase Character sheet is downloadable here:
Get it here!

LuisCarlos17f LuisCarlos17f's picture
A fascist is a communist who

A fascist is a communist who doesn't want to obey Kremlin's will and a communist is a fascist who complies the will of Moscow.

I am not defending to be abused by multinational corporations, but I say capitalism doesn't mean oligarchy and the true free market is the opposite of the oligopoly.

Now we are in the age of cultural counterevolution. Now the audience rating of the Hollywood prizes are the lowest ones. People don't want more propaganda by the ministery of post-truth and they are noticing Keynes' ideas about economy are wrong, and Friedich Hayek, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman or Thomas Sowell are right. Anticapitalism is replacing businessmen with their own synarchy who monopolizes all economy "to protect us" and then you can't be rich by your effort and talent but your links with the big fishes of the party, and they haven't to worry about make mistakes because they will not suffer themself the consequences by their actions but we will pay the "broken plates" by their incompetence and corruption.

Thomas Sowell said: "It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."

Madame Roland, before to be executed said: 'O Liberty! What crimes are committed in thy name!'

Please, do you remember the movies of Robocop? Now watch how is Detroit in the real world. What party is elected there since decades ago? Have you seen the fruits by anticapitalism in Cuba o Venezuela? If Germans couldn't communism work then who can?

Do you know what happens when economy is controlled by the state? A good example is the Spanish cinema industry. We don't want to watch Spanish movies because almost always it is only boring political propaganda, but it doesn't matter because they will get the grants anyway, but sometimes we watch Spanish series in TV because here the producers risk their own money and then they try to make something to be liked by the public.

Lots of who know how to kill a tyrant don't know how to govern a nation. Take care, do you know the book and movie "land of the blind"? Sometimes after a death of a tyrant the new one may be worse.

Have you thought anytime about a story in a cyberpunk dystopia set in Rusia or China? Why aren't they good places to write stories about rich elites (many times ex-politicians in megacorporations enjoying the advantages of the "revolving doors") playing the "game of thrones" (fighting each other for the supreme power) while the population is suffering poverty and misery, and being cannon fodder in a war against other country?

I have seen many hypocrites who said they are defenders of the freedom against social injustice and oppression but they are toxic people and wannabe tyrants with sherper's clothes. The true free-thinker tries to give datas and arguments to explain the reasons of his point of view, cause doubts, to make to think, not like the toxic people who try force us to agreed by mean of humiliating, psychology mistreating, offending who dares to disagree him. Without the respect for the human dignity, the root of the human rights, we haven't got true freedom, social justice nor democracy.

Do you like "V of Vendetta" by Alan Moore? It seems anarchy is cool, but in the real world it would like the survivors from "Walking Dead" fighting against Governor or Negan's troops, or in the real world, a group of narcos ringing your door and saying you "We like your wife, she has to have a shower because after your daughter she will be the next". It is very saying "I don't like authority" when you live in a free country and you haven't suffered the true oppression. Anarchy is a child suffering school bullying and teachers do nothing to stop it because there is not enough authority.

The Master Confucius said: “The noble man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony.” (Anaclet 13:23).

Libertad Libertad's picture
LuisCarlos17f wrote:A fascist

LuisCarlos17f wrote:
A fascist is a communist who doesn't want to obey Kremlin's will and a communist is a fascist who complies the will of Moscow.

Fascism and communism are quite different, ideologically speaking. Communism centers around anti-capitalism and worker's revolution leading to an egalitarian society. Fascism focuses on ethnic groups locked in perpetual struggle as the natural way of things, and thus advocate racial identarianism and militaristic policy against other races/states.

Quote:
I am not defending to be abused by multinational corporations, but I say capitalism doesn't mean oligarchy and the true free market is the opposite of the oligopoly.

Now we are in the age of cultural counterevolution. Now the audience rating of the Hollywood prizes are the lowest ones. People don't want more propaganda by the ministery of post-truth and they are noticing Keynes' ideas about economy are wrong, and Friedich Hayek, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman or Thomas Sowell are right. Anticapitalism is replacing businessmen with their own synarchy who monopolizes all economy "to protect us" and then you can't be rich by your effort and talent but your links with the big fishes of the party, and they haven't to worry about make mistakes because they will not suffer themself the consequences by their actions but we will pay the "broken plates" by their incompetence and corruption.

What does this have to do with the KickStarter?

Quote:
Thomas Sowell said: "It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."

Madame Roland, before to be executed said: 'O Liberty! What crimes are committed in thy name!'

Please, do you remember the movies of Robocop? Now watch how is Detroit in the real world. What party is elected there since decades ago? Have you seen the fruits by anticapitalism in Cuba o Venezuela? If Germans couldn't communism work then who can?

The failures of communist states, or states which call themselves communist, is a whole other can of worms. Also what does Robocop and Detroit have to do with communism? In fact, many of Detroit's economic failures are due to it being a company town; when the auto industry collapsed, it took most of the jobs with it.

Quote:
Have you thought anytime about a story in a cyberpunk dystopia set in Rusia or China? Why aren't they good places to write stories about rich elites (many times ex-politicians in megacorporations enjoying the advantages of the "revolving doors") playing the "game of thrones" (fighting each other for the supreme power) while the population is suffering poverty and misery, and being cannon fodder in a war against other country?

Lol this is Wolfenstein New Colossus all over again. "If we can have fascist baddies why not commie baddies?! This is totes unbalanced!"

Quote:
I have seen many hypocrites who said they are defenders of the freedom against social injustice and oppression but they are toxic people and wannabe tyrants with sherper's clothes. The true free-thinker tries to give datas and arguments to explain the reasons of his point of view, cause doubts, to make to think, not like the toxic people who try force us to agreed by mean of humiliating, psychology mistreating, offending who dares to disagree him. Without the respect for the human dignity, the root of the human rights, we haven't got true freedom, social justice nor democracy.

Do you like "V of Vendetta" by Alan Moore? It seems anarchy is cool, but in the real world it would like the survivors from "Walking Dead" fighting against Governor or Negan's troops, or in the real world, a group of narcos ringing your door and saying you "We like your wife, she has to have a shower because after your daughter she will be the next". It is very saying "I don't like authority" when you live in a free country and you haven't suffered the true oppression. Anarchy is a child suffering school bullying and teachers do nothing to stop it because there is not enough authority.

The point of V for Vendetta was that the trade-off between freedom and security is a non-issue when the State gives you neither if you are a hated group. Better to have maximum freedom and no security than no freedom and no security.


"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."
~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

Libertad Libertad's picture
https://www.kickstarter.com

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2089483951/sigmata-this-signal-kills-fascists/posts/2092902

Sorry to double-post, but people are not happy when the 4 factions were revealed. 3 of them are msotly right-wing cultural subgroups in the US, two of which express tendencies which would be in line with fascism (ethnostates and stoning sinners), while the communist faction will get infiltrated by tankies.

There's no actual anarchist (in the traditional sense of the term) or antifa faction. The comparison of the Old Men to Redneck Revolt is kind of insulting, in that it insinuates that left-wing anti-racist Southerners are going to like, bond with the KKK over an ethnostate cuz guns and freedom.


"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."
~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

LuisCarlos17f LuisCarlos17f's picture
Fascism and communism aren't

Fascism and communism aren't so different, they are branches from the same trunk. Benito Mussoline was socialist, and director of the newspaper "Avanti". Saying communism is the opposite of the communism is false. Communism vs fascism is like Vietnam vs Cambodia in the 1978 war. But media does't talk about this. It is very annoying for me to find movies, comics, books or games to promote anti-capitalist/anti-system propaganda.

The stereotypes of evil multinational corporation and oppressive conservative government we find in some works by the media aren't only annoying, but it may start to be dangerous because then we are used to a false dilemma, or against businessmen and conservative politicians, o against freedom, democracy and progress. I am angry not only by the cliché of religious zealot in the fantasy and sci-fi fiction, but almost never the media (movies, books, comics or games) talk about a different type of wolf in sheep's clothes: the revolutionary who really is an aspiring dictator. Isn't that a double standard? Do you remember any fiction work where the communists are the evil guys, like in the videogame "Homefront: the revolution?"

I am Spanish, in the 30's years my grandparents' generation suffered and civil war, and after a dictatorship, and now I am seing the signs of the menace because a new generation is repeating the same steps. The youngest ones have received a lot of anti-system and anti-capitalist propaganda, and they don't notice the rebells may be worse than the previous regime. Here in Spain in only a month more people were killed by communists, the red terror, that Catholic Inquisition in all History. They were trying the worst anti-Catholic genocide from the XX century?

Do you understand now? Each fiction work about "heroes who rebel against the oppressive system" means we could find in the future a terrorist group like anarchists who sent a bomb in the Catholic cathedral of "La Almudena" in Madrid in 2013 year.

Media and fiction, also games, should warn us if we don't defend the respect of the human dignity, the root of the human rights, then killing a tyrant only we get this to be replaced by a new one, killing a monster to becoming ourselves one?

What if a new RPG of (post)cyberpunk genre where the evil multinational megacorporations aren't Northamericans, but Russians or Chineses? Why not a remake of "Price of Freedom RPG" by West End Games.

The Master Confucius said: “The noble man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony.” (Anaclet 13:23).

Libertad Libertad's picture
LuisCarlos17f wrote:Fascism

LuisCarlos17f wrote:
Fascism and communism aren't so different, they are branches from the same trunk. Benito Mussoline was socialist, and director of the newspaper "Avanti". Saying communism is the opposite of the communism is false. Communism vs fascism is like Vietnam vs Cambodia in the 1978 war. But media does't talk about this. It is very annoying for me to find movies, comics, books or games to promote anti-capitalist/anti-system propaganda.

The burden of proof is on you. Over 99% of political scientists and historians agree that communism and fascism are separate ideologies. Benito Mussolini had some very strong words against Karl Marx's "apocalyptic sayings" in the Doctrine of Fascism and believed that systemic inequality (which socialism professes to fight) is not a primary concern. The Doctrine can be read here for free online:

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm

As for groups like the Nazis calling themselves socialist, they're lying like how North Korea calls itself democratic. And while it's true Mussolini was once a socialist, he had a falling out in the 20s and swung hard to the far right.

Also it's rather weird that you're complaining about anti-capitalist themes. One of Sigmata's factions is a group of anarcho-capitalist businessmen fighting fascists. It reads like you believe that this KickStarter's implying that the fascist Regime are capitalists just because they're located in the United States.

Quote:
The stereotypes of evil multinational corporation and oppressive conservative government we find in some works by the media aren't only annoying, but it may start to be dangerous because then we are used to a false dilemma, or against businessmen and conservative politicians, o against freedom, democracy and progress. I am angry not only by the cliché of religious zealot in the fantasy and sci-fi fiction, but almost never the media (movies, books, comics or games) talk about a different type of wolf in sheep's clothes: the revolutionary who really is an aspiring dictator. Isn't that a double standard? Do you remember any fiction work where the communists are the evil guys, like in the videogame "Homefront: the revolution?"

Rocky & Bullwinkle, Call of Duty Black Ops, Silver Age Comic Books from the 50s to 70s, Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull, Full Metal Jacket, James Bond From Russia With Love, Rambo First Blood, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, The Deer Hunter, the Manchurian Candidate, Rocky IV, and far too many to name here. Communist/Soviet villains are a dime a dozen from Cold War days.

Quote:
I am Spanish, in the 30's years my grandparents' generation suffered and civil war, and after a dictatorship, and now I am seing the signs of the menace because a new generation is repeating the same steps. The youngest ones have received a lot of anti-system and anti-capitalist propaganda, and they don't notice the rebells may be worse than the previous regime. Here in Spain in only a month more people were killed by communists, the red terror, that Catholic Inquisition in all History. They were trying the worst anti-Catholic genocide from the XX century?

Do you understand now? Each fiction work about "heroes who rebel against the oppressive system" means we could find in the future a terrorist group like anarchists who sent a bomb in the Catholic cathedral of "La Almudena" in Madrid in 2013 year.

I could just as easily point to your desire for anti-communist media as being another dangerous example. ALthough you insist they are the same, Neo-Nazis such as Richard Spencer and cryptofascists such as Stefan Molyneux and Steve Bannon believe that "Cultural Marxists" want to genocide the white race through inter-racial marriage and flooding Western societies with immigrants. They point to Karl Marx's Jewish ancestry and communist group's historical alliances with non-Caucasian nations (China, South Africa's black underclass, etc) as "proof" that any group which advocates for civil rights wants to harm whites in the name of equality.

Quote:
Media and fiction, also games, should warn us if we don't defend the respect of the human dignity, the root of the human rights, then killing a tyrant only we get this to be replaced by a new one, killing a monster to becoming ourselves one?

Sigmata actually acknowledges this in their Resistance faction, although they do it in a rather dumb and ham-fisted way.

Quote:
What if a new RPG of (post)cyberpunk genre where the evil multinational megacorporations aren't Northamericans, but Russians or Chineses? Why not a remake of "Price of Freedom RPG" by West End Games.

You were earlier complaining about anti-corporation themes being dangerous, but now you're saying it would be okay as long as they're Russian or Chinese? What?


"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."
~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

LuisCarlos17f LuisCarlos17f's picture
We are talking about a sci-fi

We are talking about a sci-fi work, and the thread of this is "rebellion against the system", and then we are arguing about how this could become dangerous political propaganda. Dangerous because we are used by the media to the idea we have to avoid a dystopian future like the teleserie "the bride's tale", but in our f**king real world the true dystopias are in Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Eritrea, North Korea, China o Rusia. We know people from the Whitehouse are't angels, but that doesn't Kremlin or Zhongnahai to be better option. Have you seen how is the real Detroit or California, who rules there?

Do you remember the Norsefire party from "V of Vendetta"? I worry because many people aren't able to notice the Norsefire from our real world may be not a conservative/far-right party, but far-left. It is assumed we have to learn from the past to not repeat the same mistakes but when in the facadas of the Spanish Catholic churches is written "¡ARDERÉIS COMO EN EL 36!" (= you will bur like in the (year 19)36!") it is time to wonder who really is closest to the "dark side of the Force". Sorry, but progressive liberalism doesn't avoid you may become a zealot tainted by the dark side who kills "counterrevolutionaries" padawans if the leader of revolutionary forces gives the order 66.

Warning, the new rebels against the system could become the future tyrants. Do you remember the character Willie Stark from "All the king's men"? Or the 1793-94 French terror by Robespierre and jacobins. Or have I to explain it with a tale with little animals as George Orwell's "Animal Farm"?

You are showed some examples of anti-communist fiction works but most of them are +30 years old. Today everybody know the current Hollywood is... senator McCarthy's nightmare. Have you read anything about Venona project?

Fallacies ad populum don't work with me. Italian fascism, German nazism (nazionalsocialism) and communism share the shame roots, and who study it seriously can check it. Mussolini was a socialist who didn't want to receive orders by the Kremlin, that is all. Hitler also was anti-capitalist, and anti-Christian.

The Master Confucius said: “The noble man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony.” (Anaclet 13:23).

sysop sysop's picture
Let me see if I can sort out

Let me see if I can sort out a few things for you cause there are some historical facts that are really missing here in what you're arguing. If you want to keep making this argument you have *got* to be on the same page with reality.

You claim to have seriously studied this topic... well let's see if you have:

* "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Socialism IS NOT the same thing as fascism, nor is it the same thing as communism either. Socialism predates Marx. By almost 30 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#Early_socialism - And there are many flavors and ranges of socialism. Lenin-style planned economies are only one approach. Democratic socialism is a decentralized approach and heavily features unions and worker co-operatives. The goal is the same, the means to get there is up for debate. Which is why you get a wide range of approaches from the Nordic model to classic Marxism to Leninist communism. All of these are approaches to trying to achieve egalitarianism: treating people as equals regardless of class of birth or current personal wealth.

It's worth noting that Marx was writing for the New-York Tribune pre-1861. Before the US Civil War. In a time and audience where the US plantation system and slavery existed. So very literally: treating people as equals and not property was a current issue for him and his audience at the time.

* Just because something calls themselves a term does not mean they actually are. For example - the Grand Old Party - the GOP. Is the younger of the two major parties in the US. In the US, the "liberal" party is the left party. Outside the US, the "liberal" party is usually considered on the right because the "liberal" part refers to laissez-faire economic policy. In the US we have no party that would be considered on the left if viewed on the world stage. We have right and far-right. In short, just because a fascist party has 'Socialist' in the title does not actually make them socialist in *policy*. If they are not interested in the core principle of egalitarianism then they are by definition not socialist.

* Socialism as fascism: Not true. Mussolini originally was a member of the Italian Socialist Party (PSI). He was expelled from them for being pro-war in WW1 and removed as editor of Avanti! ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avanti!_(Italian_newspaper) ) Later he denounced them and their policies. He also denounced socialist principles and turned instead to nationalism. He founded the fascist movement which opposed egalitarianism in 1915 and renamed it to "National Fascist Party" 1921. Italian fascism was grounded explicitly in hierarchy and authoritarian state structure NOT in equality. Egalitarianism is a core principle of socialism. Therefore, he was NOT socialist.

* Nor was Mussolini communist. Mussolini first denounced socialism in December of 1914. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini#Beginning_of_Fascism_and_service_in_World_War_I - Communism does not solidify as a concept until 1917. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Modern_communism And communist control of Russia is not solidified until after the Red and White War ends in 1922. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_Soviet_Union

Very literally there is no "Kremlin" for Mussolini to "reject" because that would require a time machine.

German fascism comes from this root yes. As does Spanish fascism. But this root explicitly rejected communism and socialism. In fact Mussolini's own words highlight this in the Doctrine of Fascism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doctrine_of_Fascism#Quotations

"Fascism is therefore opposed to Socialism to which unity within the State (which amalgamates classes into a single economic and ethical reality) is unknown, and which sees in history nothing but the class struggle. Fascism is likewise opposed to trade unionism as a class weapon,"

"After Socialism, Fascism attacks the whole complex of democratic ideologies and rejects them both in their theoretical premises and in their applications or practical manifestations. Fascism denies that the majority, through the mere fact of being a majority, can rule human societies; it denies that this majority can govern by means of a periodical consultation; it affirms the irremediable, fruitful and beneficent inequality of men, who cannot be levelled by such a mechanical and extrinsic fact as universal suffrage."

Given the man's own words and the timeline it is absolutely NOT reasonable to conclude that fascism is the same as socialism is the same as communism. It's just not.

You are wrong.

What you *are* correct on is something else entirely: Authoritarianism

Fascism enshrines authoritarian as a core principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Fascist_Party#Totalitarianism So of course, Italian, German and Spanish fascism were also authoritarian: aka featuring strong central power and limited freedom on an individual level.

Fascism is for the only liberty which can be a serious thing, the liberty of the state and of the individual in the state. Therefore for the fascist, everything is in the state, and no human or spiritual thing exists, or has any sort of value, outside the state. In this sense fascism is totalitarian, and the fascist state which is the synthesis and unity of every value, interprets, develops and strengthens the entire life of the people.
— Benito Mussolini, Giovanni Gentile, Doctrine of Fascism (1932)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism#Examples_of_states_which_were_historically_authoritarian

Note that Franco's Spain is absolutely included on this list. Authoritarian governments *suck balls* because of the core belief is that the individual is non-existent outside of the state.

And yes, this is also true of Soviet Communism - which is arguably a *failed* communist effort because of authoritarian approaches. Given the core principle of authoritarianism and egalitarianism are in direct conflict with each other.

We have examples of non-authoritarian socialism: Norway, is a Social Democracy under the Nordic model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model - and unions in the US. We do not have a modern example of a non-authoritarian communist society because authoritarianism has historically poisoned that effort - but we do have a historical example that comes very close to meeting the definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Iroquois - who practiced communal ownership of land and production of goods within their communities.

TL;DR; You have an issue (rightfully) with authoritarianism not with socialism.

I'm hoping now that I've laid the timeline and the policies of these group out for you that you'll be better able to make your points in the future. Cause the approach you seem to be taking right now is at best nonsensical. It makes it very difficult to take you seriously.

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LuisCarlos17f LuisCarlos17f's picture
Franco was a dictador, but he

Franco was a dictador, but he stopped the potential worst anti-Catholic genocide from the XX century, and really he wasn't so Hitler's friend.

This is a forum of RPG, and we shouldn't talk about politics, but we could talk about History. Hitler and Mussolini were "anti-capitalist". I have got some quotes in my file of images, to publish them in facebook, but they are Spanish language.

Socialism as the final concept of duty, the ethical duty of work, not just for oneself but also for one’s fellow man’s sake, and above all the principle: Common good before own good, a struggle against all parasitism and especially against easy and unearned income. And we were aware that in this fight we can rely on no one but our own people. We are convinced that socialism in the right sense will only be possible in nations and races that are Aryan, and there in the first place we hope for our own people and are convinced that socialism is inseparable from nationalism.

Adolf Hitler "Why We Are Anti-Semites," August 15, 1920 speech in Munich at the Hofbräuhaus.

We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.

"basically National Socialism and Marxism are the same" Speech of February 24.

Adolf Hitler as quoted in Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, John Toland, New York: NY, Anchor Books, 1992, p. 224. Quote is from a speech at the Clou restaurant center on May 1, 1927. Hitler is paraphrasing Gregor Strasser’s one-page Nazi talking points memo from June 15, 1926.

Mussolini said: God does not exist—religion in science is an absurdity, in practice an immorality and in men a disease.
“Religion: Benito a Christian?” Time magazine (Aug. 25, 1924)

Fascism establishes the real equality of individuals before the nation… the object of the regime in the economic field is to ensure higher social justice for the whole of the Italian people… What does social justice mean? It means work guaranteed, fair wages, decent homes, it means the possibility of continuous evolution and improvement. Nor is this enough. It means that the workers must enter more and more intimately into the productive process and share its necessary discipline… As the past century was the century of capitalist power, the twentieth century is the century of power and glory of labour.

Four Speeches on the Corporate State, Rome, (1935) pp. 39-40. Speech delivered to the workers in Milan. Eric Jabbari, Pierre Laroque and the Welfare State in Postwar France, Oxford University Press, (2012) p. 46

The outbreak of a socialist revolution in one country will cause the others to imitate it or so to strengthen the proletariat as to prevent its national bourgeoisie from attempting any armed intervention.
As quoted in The Myth of the Nation and the Vision of Revolution: The Origins of Ideological Polarization in the 20th Century, Jacob Talmon, University of California Press (1981) p. 487
Some still ask of us: what do you want? We answer with three words that summon up our entire program. Here they are…Italy, Republic, Socialization. . .Socialization is no other than the implantation of Italian Socialism…
As quoted in Revolutionary Fascism, Erik Norling, Lisbon, Finis Mundi Press (2011) pp.119-120. Speech given by Mussolini to a group of Milanese Fascist veterans on October 14, 1944.
We go to battle against the plutocratic and reactionary democracies of the west… This gigantic struggle is nothing other than a phase in the logical development of our revolution; it is the struggle of peoples that are poor but rich in workers against the exploiters who hold on ferociously to the monopoly off all the riches and all the gold of the earth…

“Declaration of War on France and England,” Mussolini Speech on June 10, 1940

* You can't convince me, can you convince who studies on her own and draw her own conclusions? Mussolini & Hitler vs Stalin was like Pol Pot's Cambodian Khem Rogues vs Vietcong in 1978 or Vietnam vs China in 1979. They shared the same roots.

The Master Confucius said: “The noble man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony.” (Anaclet 13:23).

sysop sysop's picture
You started this.

You started this.

You're the one who brought these arguments here. Eclipse Phase is one of the most political games in the industry and we're talking about an explicitly political RPG Kickstarter.

Are you really going to ignore everything I said up there? Ignoring the time machine question and moving onto anti-capitalism now?

Ok. Socialism focuses on equality and that doesn't necessarily require capitalism or free markets to go away so long as there is power sharing - that's what unions are for. Socialism is focused on equality - if you can achieve that within a capitalist structure then cool. See: Nordic model

Again - just because someone says they are socialist does not mean they *are*. Propaganda means people re-label things, and Hitler attempted to re-label socialism as nationalism in a deliberate attempt to make palatable the innately anti-democratic belief underneath it. The quotes you've provided demonstrate that technique.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#Contempt_for_democracy

He was explicitly anti-Communist and anti-Marxist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#Anti-Communism

And then there's this "and really he wasn't so Hitler's friend."

Franco was not a friend of Hitler? In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary: "Come again?"

HAVE YOU ASKED GUERNICA HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THAT?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco#World_War_II

Franco wanted to join in 1940 after the fall of France. The only reason Spain didn't join in with the Axis powers was because Franco asked too much. In 2010 documents were discovered showing that on 13 May 1941, Franco ordered his provincial governors to compile a list of Jews while he sided and made an alliance with the Axis powers. https://www.haaretz.com/1.5137381

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kindalas kindalas's picture
Thread Locked

This is the second time I've had to step into this thread using my moderator authority.

So I'm just going to lock it as an example of what not to do.

And how jumping into a discussion with half considered theories presented as facts is bad.

And how doubling down on nonsense after people correct you with actual facts and cites and sources is bad.

Thread closed.

More disciplinary actions may be incoming.

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