May 29 - Gear - Feedback Thread

69 posts / 0 new
Last post
AdamJury AdamJury's picture
May 29 - Gear - Feedback Thread

This is the feedback thread for the Gear chapter, updated on May 29th.

It can be downloaded as part of the EP2 Open Playtest at: http://bit.ly/ep2playtest

We are getting down to the wire for this playtest. This is likely to be the final update to the Eclipse Phase Second Edition playtest. At this point, core mechanics and major features are locked down. Things to look for:

• Numbers and terms that are inconsistent or seem off-base with each other
(IE: a number/rule/term was updated in one chapter but not in another, or a number in text that contradicts a table).
• Unclear wording or explanations, typographical mistakes.
• Rules that are easily exploitable that lead to un-fun game situations, characters mechanically hogging the spotlight, etc.
• Places that should have cross-references (“p. XX” references) to other sections but do not OR vice-versa — places that seem to have excessive cross-refs.

Please exercise restraint in back-and-forth posting in this thread.

o11o1 o11o1's picture
I'm looking over the gear

I'm looking over the gear options that affect a Morph's Pools.

For both Moxie and Insight, there is a Major augmentation that gives +2, and a Moderate augmentation that gives +1.

For Vigor, there seem to be at one Major that gives +2, but four different mods that give +1.

Is there a total cap on the number of pool points you can get from augmentations? It seems like implant-stacking could get pretty crazy for vigor. If there's a max cap of +3 total, it would make more sense to me. Or are we allowed to just stack Vigor twice as tall as the other two?

A slight smell of ions....

o11o1 o11o1's picture
Under bots, Parispheres and

Under bots, Parispheres and Shield Drones don't have a listed Complexity. Rare/Restricted and Major respectively?

A slight smell of ions....

Magnavox Magnavox's picture
Typo in Gear

In Gear, Page 19, Under Vacuum Sealing.

Quote:
Vacuum Sealing: Your morph is modified to survive the effects of vacuum. You can seal your mouth, nose, and other orifices to prevent the freezing of bodily fluids from evaporative cooling. A special membrane protects your eyes, enabling you to see in vacuum with distortion or damage.

I think you meant to say "...Without distortion or damage."

Any man can handle adversity. If you want to test a
Man's character, give him power.
- attributed to Abraham Lincoln

Magnavox Magnavox's picture
Typo in Gear

Pg 37, In Prisoner Mask:

Quote:
Prisoner Mask: This hood tightens around the head of a prisoner and blocks visual frequencies, so that even a prisoner with enhanced vision is blinded. The hood is all a faraday cage and engages in low-level jamming...

I think it's supposed to read, "The hood is also a faraday cage..."

Also the next sentence contains the word equippped

Any man can handle adversity. If you want to test a
Man's character, give him power.
- attributed to Abraham Lincoln

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Here is a suggestion of how

Here is a suggestion of how to revise skillsofts.

You have 3 slots. You may load skillware into these slots. You can have an active or knowledge skill at 40 for 1 slot, or a knowledge skill at 80 for 2 slots. You may swap skills on the start of your turn, but doing so renders the slots inaccessible until the start of your next turn.

I know you guys mentioned that you are not into changing rules at this point, but please keep in mind that this is the first time we get to see these rules for testing.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Moving these questions to

Moving these questions to this thread.

I think that skillsofts were poorly written in EP 1. I think its still bad written as they are now.

Any rules for making your own ALI? How about modding existing ALIs?

Vehicle hardware, improved handling: It says it offers a -10 mod to pilot tests. Shouldn't it be a +10 mod?

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Biomods. Please include

Biomods. Please include contraception in there, or provide a link to somewhere else that covers biomods in more detail. It annoyed me in EP 1 that biomods had contraception features, but it was never covered in the gear section. I had to look somewhere else to find that it covered contraception or did other stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people in EP 1 that didn't know that biomods had contraception.

Mnemonics. It says that when you resleeve into a morph that has no mnemonics, that only memories that were formed while mnemonics were present get a +20 bonus to remember. New memories don't have that bonuses. What about memories before mnemonics? Do you get the bonus while you have mnemonics for earlier memories. Do you still have the bonus after resleeving?

Everyday tech, right after standard augments. Why? I would prefer it if the next thing shown was more augments. I want to be able to see all augments in one go.

Ectos. I was never sure about this. Do ectos apply a -10 mod because of the user interface, or because of hardware? Would an infomorph running on an ecto have this penalty?

Oracles. "Oracles provide a + 10 bonus to Perceive, negate...". I think there should be an "and" between the comma and "negate".

Grim G Grim G's picture
What I think so far

Enhanced vision feels a little OP to me. Besides the +10 to perceive, and 5x zoom function, it also encompasses everything related to infrared vision, which includes +20 to kinesics, white walls become mirrors, able to see through non-thermal smoke, able to see previous heat signatures, and make know:chemestry tests with sight alone. On top of this, you don't need a T-ray emitter in vacuums. The only balance I knew of in 1st ed was the fact that the bioware models couldn't be filtered. Now they can.

This also begs the question, why have cyberware when bioware options are available? Bioware can't be hacked after all.

Here's a question, does Muscle Augmentation stack with Pnumatics? They can both be hardware, so they can both be put on a synth.

I lake that Shape Adjusting still allows you to make your own ware. The inability to make advanced electronics like a ghostrider makes sense, I'll still allow my players to make any mobility system they want since I like the idea of these things being Transformers.

I like that Skinflex now adds hair color into the mix, before I had to homebrew a specific ware for that called "smart hair", except smart hair also allowed the user to control hair length and shape (a simple command switched your curly hair into a beehive)

Why are Dead Switches still a thing? They can only be activated when you die, which begs the question, why not just remove your stack for next to nothing? If it could be remotely activated as well, then I'd find it useful.

I see we still have no ALI for automated defenses, or are bot AIs supposed to be using interfac and weapon systems?

Is a specific software needed to record exps? Like a mission recorder or Mnemonics?

Does implanting augments by yourself count as an expense? Or are you just paying for the service/blueprints for them?

Nice to see Schitzo is still there. It never served much of a purpose but it was fun as hell.

Interesting to see that BTX2 now has a counter, I always thought the whole point of it was that it was expensive, but the best way to make sure a biomorph stayed dead.

I especially like how the Resource trait got balanced. And the idea that most gear would be sold is rather interesting.

So, one thing I've been toying around with in the past is the idea of a license, and I think those should be a thing to get restricted gear, with price categories ranging from minor to rare based on the legality and danger of the weapon, to where it could be used. Examples would be things like light arms, conceal carrying, ammunition types, caliber, magazine>15, full auto fire, restricted to home defense only, etc.

That's all the feedback I have for now. On this section.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Drug Glands: Its nice this

Drug Glands: Its nice this time around that we know how quickly the glands produce a dose, and how many doses they can store.

Immunizers: The way this is written, it sounds like it has to make a test every time it takes potentially harmful substance, even things that it should know to resist. For instance, a person who has a taste for cyanide and arsenic, do they have to make a test every time they consume some?

Weapon Mount (Fixed or Swiveling): I'm a little confused. Could you reword what can be mounted to medium morphs? I think it means you can mount any weapon type except two-handed weapons and fixed weapons.

Meshware, Persistence: Infomorphs have durability now?

Smart Animals: No smart cats? I suppose I could make due with a swarm cat modded to be somewhat normal.

Chemical and Toxins: How many doses of chemical or toxin you get when you make a purchase?

Drugs: I like that it says how many doses you get. Such details were not provided in EP 1.

Med Scanner: Typo. "...+ 30 if the target is currently effected by nanoware...". It should be "affected" not "effected".

Androminous Androminous's picture
Do gear modifiers stack?

You should clarify whether gear modifiers stack, or this will be discussed at excessive length around game tables. Do they never stack, you only use the best? Do they always stack? Or do they sometimes when you can rationalize that you could benefit from both? I would prefer the first option, that leads to the least number of discussions and abuse. I don’t want to spend time discussing whether a character can benefit from both having specs and enhanced vision at the same time or not.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Autocook: I'm glad the maker

Autocook: I'm glad the maker got renamed the autocook. It makes it more distinct from other fabbers.

Specialized Fabbers: Wait. They can only make one thing now? Is this specific to the point where only 1 model of heavy pistols, or one type of drug such as Drive? On the other hand, they have the same price as a small fabbers, and can be any size they need to be. How much trouble would it be to carry around one big enough that can make a Reaper?

Swarm Movement Speed: I'm glad this is explicitly stated in the core rulebook instead of being unmentioned.

Swarm Attacks: Rephrase this. Maybe as "Because they can easily maneuver around gaps in armor, swarm attacks ignore armor..."

Vehicles: It is nice that many craft type groups now include skills needed to use them, and skills needed to repair them. However, hybrid craft don't mention such details, nor do personal transport devices.

Trike: What do one of these look like? I keep getting a mental image of a person in an exosuit standing on a platform with 3 wheels. The alternative is something that looks like a motor cycle, but I find it hard to imagine it being an exosuit.

Whats missing: Right now, I can't find weapons or synthmorph mobility systems.

Zaka Zaka's picture
Tools (kits / shop / facilities)

Quote:
Tools: Tools come in kits (medium, portable), shops (can ft into a large vehicle), and facilities (huge, non-mobile). Each set of tools applies to a particular skill, such as Hardware: Electronics or Medicine: Paramedic. [Min] for kits, [Mod] for shops, and [Maj] for facilities.

I confess that I have trouble understanding the explanation and usefulness of the Tools (page 8). It allows you to use one of the two skills? But then, what's the difference between the three sizes?

And what is the difference with the Utilitool?

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I'll help.

I'll help.

First off, its not limited to just 2 skills. It offered 2 skills as examples of skills you can select. You can for instance have a wood working tool kit, an archeology tool kit, a car repair tool kit, etc. It can be as simple as a bunch of tools you have collected and put in a box. Hammers, screw drivers, pliers, wire cutters, etc. Or you could go to a store and buy a fancy tool kit.

The size of the "kit" affects the variety and quality of tools you might have. It is note worthy that not having the correct tool for the job can not only apply a penalty, but it might prevent you from being able to perform the task in question.

A tool kit is basically a box, with tools inside, that you can carry with you. A wood working kit would have hammers, screw drivers, a saw, a few pencils, protractor, levels, etc.

A shop would be a building that has more space and more tools. Or it could be all stuffed in a trailer. The tools can be taken out and deployed as needed. A wood working shop could have power saws, power drills, work tables, nail guns, bigger versions of what ever tools you have in your tool kit, etc. Basically stuff you might have to make several trips to your trailer in order to do a job.

A facility would be the largest of the 3 options. It would have all the tools you will ever need... and many that you will probably never need to use. You can do more than work your trade, you can make works of art (metaphorically). A wood working facility would have tables and tools hooked up to saw dust vacuums, have many specialized tools, tools for wood big and small, tools for making fancy shapes out of wood, etc.

Zaka Zaka's picture
Thank you,

Thank you,

but what is the difference with the Utilitool (same page)?

I ask this because these two gears are offered with the Explorer pack.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
The utilitool can turn into

The utilitool can turn into (almost) any tool in 1d6 minutes. It can do the same jobs as tool kits, but it takes longer because you have to wait for the device to change tools. It can be any tool, so if you have a the wrong tool kit or no took kit at all, the utilitool has you covered.

Zaka Zaka's picture
Thank you for that answer.

Thank you for that answer.

Grim G Grim G's picture
Drug doses

How many doses of a drug/toxin can one get with one purchase? Because if nothing is stated then I'm defaulting to 1.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I found the missing gear.

I found the missing gear. Weapons are in the action and combat chapter (spread throughout), and mobility systems are in the game mechanics chapter (last 2 pages). Those are not the first places I would look for them.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
DivineWrath wrote:Immunizers:

DivineWrath wrote:
Immunizers: The way this is written, it sounds like it has to make a test every time it takes potentially harmful substance, even things that it should know to resist. For instance, a person who has a taste for cyanide and arsenic, do they have to make a test every time they consume some?

It sounds like the first time you're exposed, you still suffer the effects of the toxin. If your check is successful, you're immune to future exposure, so you don't need to test next time you consume cyanide. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like it helps you on that initial exposure (which is likely to be your last exposure, since it will kill you).

DivineWrath wrote:
Meshware, Persistence: Infomorphs have durability now?

See Mesh pg. 28 for durability and death ratings of infomorphs. Mesh attacks can damage the infomorph.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Grim G wrote:How many doses

Grim G wrote:
How many doses of a drug/toxin can one get with one purchase? Because if nothing is stated then I'm defaulting to 1.

Page 24 indicates that you get 5 doses for the listed complexity price under the Chemicals and Toxins header.
Page 32 repeats this under the Drugs header.
ubik2 ubik2's picture
Gear

Gear
p. 2 "gear or higher" should be "gear of higher"
p. 5 I didn't understand the intended GP limit. Are players supposed to have 10GP for the Firewall pack, 10GP for the profession pack, and 10GP of additional mission specific items? Are they supposed to choose a 10GP subset of their two existing 10GP packs, with the option to select things that aren't in those packs?
p. 7 Mnemonics is not an option as Meshware, but is included in the all of the infomorphs.
p. 12 Drone Rig is not an option as Meshware, but is included in the Operator morph.
p. 12 Memory Lock seems to be allowed as Meshware in the table, but not in the description.
p. 12 Multiple Personalities - Some concern about extra action abuse, though Alpha forks have the same issue. Can you purchase it 3x for a total of 4 personalities or 4x for a total of 5 (including your original).
p. 16 Smart Actuators - These are probably supposed to be [Mod] instead of [Maj] to match the Novacardium version, and the version in the table on p. 17.
p. 16 Respirocytes - Should this be limited to biomorphs and pods? If not, perhaps there should be a mention of what they do for synthmorphs.
p. 18 Cyberlimb Plus - It looks like a player could stack a bunch of these to get pretty crazy Vigor pools.
p. 18 Gas-Jet system is missing a ware category in the description.
p. 32 Many drugs should probably allow for Electronic variants.
Cognitive: All
Combat: Probably Grin
Health: Comfurt
Nanodrugs: Possibly Persona, Retcon, and Schizo
Petals: All
Recreational: All
Social: All, though the Provoke effect on Hither wouldn't apply
p. 38 Shroud is listed as Restricted in the description, but not in the table.
p. 45 Scout Nanoswarm has Exotic Skill: Forensics instead of Medicine: Forensics. Is this intentional?
p. 47 A number of bots with Weapon Mounts, including Guardian Angel, should probably have Guns skill on their ALI (unless that's handled by Interface). Since the Kaos ALI and Security ALI have Guns, I assume that's the appropriate skill.
p. 47 As mentioned by o11o1, the Parisphere and Shield drone are missing the complexity tag. These are [Rare] and [Min] in the subsequent table.
p. 49 Should the Guardian Angel have armor of 12/10, based on a 2/2 (seems to be the default for a bot) together with +10/+8 for light combat armor?

Edit: Multiple Personalities as written is probably the right way to support a drone pilot that jams multiple drones at the same time. Since the individual drones are less effective, this lets that type of pilot still be effective. The remote control pilot doesn't need it, but probably has less effective drones.

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Soooo many words.

I haven't had enough time to read through in detail, but I have a couple of preference-based comments;

Skillware/wires: Could we reword it to "Each Skillware contains the knowledge to use a single skill encoded in software form. When used with a skillware system, they allow the character to make tests as though they had a rating of 40 in an active skill or 80 in a Know skill."
Then reword Skillwires to set the amount of installable skillwares, perhaps with multiple variants (1 for Min, 2 for Mod, 3 for Maj).
Time to replace would also be really good, but I'd suggest making it a part of short/long Recharges.

Second, it might be good if toolkits/shops/facilities could provide skill bonuses (+10/+20+30), both to make them stand out from utilitools or otherwise basic stuff and to provide a more concrete reason for investing in them. This could be restricted to GM choice, but I personally don't think it's necessary.

I'll put my thoughts about weapons in the combat thread.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Grim G Grim G's picture
ALI aptitudes

It should say what the aptitudes are.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Grim G wrote:It should say

Grim G wrote:
It should say what the aptitudes are.

Based on p. 12 of The Mesh, the aptitudes are presumably 10 (the usual value). It would be nice to have that information mentioned in the Gear section.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
ubik2 wrote:DivineWrath wrote

ubik2 wrote:
DivineWrath wrote:
Meshware, Persistence: Infomorphs have durability now?

See Mesh pg. 28 for durability and death ratings of infomorphs. Mesh attacks can damage the infomorph.

Seriously? I thought it was a copy and paste error. I guess this shows that I've yet to finish the mesh chapter.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
It would be nice if you could

It would be nice if you could combine 2 weapon mounts to allow use of a two handed weapon on medium bots and morphs. I would expect some of the heavier bots, like the parisphere and sentry, to be able to use these larger weapons.

Similarly, I would expect Reapers to equip two rifles, rather than four pistols in their mounts.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Polarization Vision (p. 9):

Polarization Vision (p. 9): This does not mention the kind of wares it can be.

Immunizers (p. 15): After giving it second look, it does say that it can develop defenses for the future. Nothing is promised for the moment you are being poisoned by something unknown. I think this ware can be improved if you can download well known defenses. Otherwise, your first encounter with arsenic might also be your last.

Combat Augmentations (p. 17): This table lists wares that are not covered in this chapter. I'm not sure if this a mistake or not. It also does not list where to find this gear if you wanted to look for them.

Gas-Jet System (p. 18): This does not mention the kind of wares it can be.

Mobility System (p. 18): Ah, so this is how you get new mobility systems. You might want to mention that you can select this somewhere on p. 8-9 of the game mechanics chapter.

Vacuum Sealing (p. 19): I'm not sure what is meant by this sentence: "A special membrane protects your eyes, enabling you to see in vacuum with distortion or damage." I understand that it might mean that your vision is distorted while in space, but I'm confused with the damage part.

Grim G Grim G's picture
ubik2 wrote:Grim G wrote:It

ubik2 wrote:
Grim G wrote:
It should say what the aptitudes are.

Based on p. 12 of The Mesh, the aptitudes are presumably 10 (the usual value). It would be nice to have that information mentioned in the Gear section.

Except Last time I checked muses have higher INT, but that's never mentioned.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
So many toys, so little time :(

Typo:
Energy Efficiency: The bioware version of this ware boost your metabolism.
Should be 'boosts'.

I have another quality-of-life suggestion. I realise this is a bit late for this sort of thing and not really what this stage of testing is supposed to cover, but the quality is pretty good and most of the thing's I've noticed have been covered already.

Simply put, would it be possible to give Item/Favour Complexity and possibly Ware Types either individual single-character icons, or different text colours if that would be better.
The main thing I've run into whilst going through/searching the lists is finding these elements takes a second or two to parse. Giving them a distinct visual key could make searching for specific items or combinations (for example options for shape-adjusting) much simpler.

Also, simply out of pure curiosity - are the quick tables going to be spaced out in the chapter as in the playtest documents, or will they be brought together into quick-reference section (or both)?

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

o11o1 o11o1's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

Simply put, would it be possible to give Item/Favour Complexity and possibly Ware Types either individual single-character icons, or different text colours if that would be better.
The main thing I've run into whilst going through/searching the lists is finding these elements takes a second or two to parse. Giving them a distinct visual key could make searching for specific items or combinations (for example options for shape-adjusting) much simpler.

I suggest a triangle for minor, a square for moderate, and a five pointed star for major. At least in the tables.

Bio, Cyber, Nano, Hard, Info might be trickier.

A slight smell of ions....

Magnavox Magnavox's picture
o11o1 raises a topic here

o11o1 raises a topic here that I was reluctant to raise since it sounded from the first page of the playtest documents that you where mostly looking for proofreading.

The gear complexity labels are poorly chosen. Minor/Moderate/Major/Rare/Restricted needs to have less alliterative words assigned. This makes M/M/M/R/R as acronyms. Hard to tell which is which with a single letter.

Better would be: Simple/Moderate/Complex/Rare/Illegal or something like it. Each complexity level having a single letter code that's different for each complexity.

Any man can handle adversity. If you want to test a
Man's character, give him power.
- attributed to Abraham Lincoln

Grim G Grim G's picture
Smart animal skills

Smart animals don't have any listed skill. Why exactly? This seems like a big problem.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Maybe you have to train them

Maybe you have to train them yourself? /joke

What do you mean no skills? Every one I've looked at have skills. See p. 29-30.

Grim G Grim G's picture
DivineWrath wrote:Maybe you

DivineWrath wrote:
Maybe you have to train them yourself? /joke

What do you mean no skills? Every one I've looked at have skills. See p. 29-30.


Yeah, I guess the way it was formatted mad me look over it. It does raise an important question I never got an answer for with first ed. Are the listed skills in ranks, or total?
Grim G Grim G's picture
Size and pistols make no sense

So it says in the gear section that small sized objects have the concealable trait. So I took that means that the holdout pistol is small sized and that the other 3 are a size higher, right? Well the size above is medium, and weapons that big are meant to be held with 2 hands. So clearly pistols aren't those, but they don't have the concealable trait.

Obviously this is an oversight that needs to be fixed.

ubik2 ubik2's picture
Grim G wrote:Are the listed

Grim G wrote:
Are the listed skills in ranks, or total?

I'd assume they're the totals. They're listed the same way for bots, and in that case, if the aptitudes were added to the skills, the skills would generally exceed the skill caps.

If you imagine training a dog to do a trick, you train the dog until it's got the skill down. A smart dog learns the trick faster, but you stop the training when the dog reaches a specific skill level.

If a player takes Exotic Skill: Animal Handling, and wants to train their creature to have a better skill, I'd apply a skill limit of 60 (like ALIs), which leaves you with a decent game balance. A player with Program should be able to do the same for an ALI. I'd also require the player to also have the skill being trained (or teamwork with someone who does).

Many of the smart animals do exceed the base ALI guideline (only one skill over 40, capped at 60).

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Cyberbrains and Ghostriders

Cyberbrains and Ghostriders

They do almost the same but their cost is different.

Cyberbrains is Major. Ghostrider is Minor.

I would propose they are both Moderate. Or even there is one device Universal Host which controls the morphs or devices with a Puppet Sock.

With how Jamming now works it is advantageous to implant any of your Morphs with Ghostrider and install a Infomorph in it. It is strange but thanks to the low pool of MPs it isn't broken like it could be in 1st ed. But if you want to create an army of Researchers the best way is to:

1.Get 1 Case 0MP
2.Get 1 Agent 2MP
3.Get 4 Cases 4MP
4. Install 5 Ghostriders in the Cases 5GP or 5MP
5. Sleeve an Agent.
6. Copy yourself 5 times.
5. Install on 5 Ghostriders.
6. Jam the Cases. You now have 5 Morphs with 4 Insight.

Cost total: (11 MP) or (6 MP and 5 GP)
Using Mentons or Savants it would be 28 MP.

Exurgents wanna eat your ass and you are low on ammo? Register to mobile gear catalogue at eldrich.host.mesh! ORDER NOW! FOR FREE PLASMA MINIMISSILE PACK! *explosive delivery options included

Magnavox Magnavox's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Cyberbrains and Ghostriders

They do almost the same but their cost is different.

Cyberbrains is Major. Ghostrider is Minor.

I would propose they are both Moderate. Or even there is one device Universal Host which controls the morphs or devices with a Puppet Sock.

With how Jamming now works it is advantageous to implant any of your Morphs with Ghostrider and install a Infomorph in it. It is strange but thanks to the low pool of MPs it isn't broken like it could be in 1st ed. But if you want to create an army of Researchers the best way is to:

1.Get 1 Case 0MP
2.Get 1 Agent 2MP
3.Get 4 Cases 4MP
4. Install 5 Ghostriders in the Cases 5GP or 5MP
5. Sleeve an Agent.
6. Copy yourself 5 times.
5. Install on 5 Ghostriders.
6. Jam the Cases. You now have 5 Morphs with 4 Insight.

Cost total: (11 MP) or (6 MP and 5 GP)
Using Mentons or Savants it would be 28 MP.

I think you misunderstand the functionality of the Cyberbrain and Ghost Rider modules.

A cyberbrain is Maj because you are installing a Host computer and artificial nervous system to a device that does not normally have one. Such as a drone. This turns the device into a morph.

The Ghost Rider module is an extra cyberbrain installed connected only to the mesh inserts in an already existing morph. This allows a second ego to ride along with the person sleeved into the morph. It's Min cost because the morph it's installed into already has a nervous system and mesh inserts. Further, it gives no control over the host morph and any mesh access for the second ego is at the privilege of the host ego.

If you want to control an existing morph by remote or from a ghost rider module, you need to install a puppet sock module.

In your above example, if you are buying 5 cases, why not just fork yourself 5 times and sleeve each of the egos in the cases?

You could also get a server that can run 50 egos at once, fork yourself 4 times into Operator infomophs and then Jam all 5 cases. That way you'd be able to use your Insight Pool as Vigor pools for the cases. This might not be a bad idea for some cheap fire support, but watch out for enemy hackers and EMP weapons.

Any man can handle adversity. If you want to test a
Man's character, give him power.
- attributed to Abraham Lincoln

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Magnavox wrote:

Magnavox wrote:

I think you misunderstand the functionality of the Cyberbrain and Ghost Rider modules.

Yes and No. I would like an explanation from a Dev how are they different. They are both capable of running the ego and the Cyberbrains is only somewhat more integrated into the morphs systems. Please note that in case of synthmorphs there is no such a thing as nervous system only servos, sensor data and collating/controlling soft.
The only feature distinguishing the Cyberbrain and Ghostrider + Puppet Sock are minuses to brainhacking. Otherwise it is functionally the same.

Magnavox wrote:

If you want to control an existing morph by remote or from a ghost rider module, you need to install a puppet sock module.

"Free" in most synthmorphs and pods. In other cases it is a valid points.

Magnavox wrote:

In your above example, if you are buying 5 cases, why not just fork yourself 5 times and sleeve each of the egos in the cases?

... fork yourself 4 times into Operator infomophs and then Jam all 5 cases. That way you'd be able to use your Insight Pool as Vigor pools for the cases.

That is exactly what I would do. Only I would Jam the Cases from the Ghostriders mounted inside them with the free Puppet Sock. This changes the Case into a passable combat and mental workhorse.

Also important note. If you want to sleeve a drone it is still better (not to mention cheaper) to install Ghostrider in it and Jam it from the inside than install a Cyberbrain. It allows you to use Drone Rig benefits on the drone and is cheaper while not being worse in any way other than the hacking one.

Devs you have already put in some text that indicates the Cyberbrain is an Infomorph host device. Unify it with Ghostrider. Maybe divorce Synths Insight from its mechanicals. Maybe limit a Insight possible with Cost Category of Host Device? So you can get 3 Insight only with Major Cost Host.
4 only in Savant Morph or Server with Agent.
And then Moderate for 1-2. Minor for Ectos and morphs with 0 Insight.
I will houserule Ghostrider price increase for sure.
Don't know what to do about Jamming.

Exurgents wanna eat your ass and you are low on ammo? Register to mobile gear catalogue at eldrich.host.mesh! ORDER NOW! FOR FREE PLASMA MINIMISSILE PACK! *explosive delivery options included

ubik2 ubik2's picture
I think the Drone Rig would

I think the Drone Rig would be fine if it didn't apply to full morphs (like the Case). In this case, while you might still sit in a Ghostrider, and use the Puppet Sock to control a Case, you're not getting any significant advantage over having a servitor bot carrying you in an ecto. In particular, it's not mechanically superior to sleeving.

The Puppet Sock states that they "allow a morph to be remotely controlled, just like a drone". With that wording, both Drone Rig and Drone Affinity should apply. If there were an exception for Drone Rig, do people think it would still be a problem?

Edit: Having alpha forks is going to be a balance issue, regardless. I think that in order to properly explore the crazy EP world, you want players to have this option. I'd suggest that if you feel it's being abused, the GM talks to the player to tell them to stop.

Dr. Maxwell Dr. Maxwell's picture
Synths don't seem to have any

Synths don't seem to have any way to gain additional limbs. This is especially relevant for shape adjusting with flexbots.

It is unclear if fixer swarms stack to allow rapid healing of synths.

Don't forget to check out my open source biomorph and medtech files!

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Don't make me get the spray bottle...

I'm pretty sure the thing about Ghostriders is that they aren't standalone modules; you need a cyberbrain/biobrain first, and the Ghostrider leverages the existing hardware.

Regarding Self-Puppeting, you're at least more vulnerable to being hacked as you don't have the inserts/cyberbrain barrier to defend against intrusion, and you arguably don't have a stack either.

For multiple morphs, I wouldn't allow a "main" morph to cost 0 if the character has additional morphs - The most expensive is the main one, then calculate the costs.

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:I'm

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
I'm pretty sure the thing about Ghostriders is that they aren't standalone modules; you need a cyberbrain/biobrain first, and the Ghostrider leverages the existing hardware.

Yeah I am on the fence on that. It just seems that power to cost ratio of Ghostriders is incredible.

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

Regarding Self-Puppeting, you're at least more vulnerable to being hacked as you don't have the inserts/cyberbrain barrier to defend against intrusion, and you arguably don't have a stack either.

I am aware of that. I did mention it. I just kind of feel it needs either more clarification or a word from Devs "It is RAW and RAI"

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:

For multiple morphs, I wouldn't allow a "main" morph to cost 0 if the character has additional morphs - The most expensive is the main one, then calculate the costs.

It is already the case. Only some morphs are 0 MP like a Case. When you buy one through Morph Points every next one with 0MP price costs 1MP. So there is no rule "Main Morph costs 0MP."

Exurgents wanna eat your ass and you are low on ammo? Register to mobile gear catalogue at eldrich.host.mesh! ORDER NOW! FOR FREE PLASMA MINIMISSILE PACK! *explosive delivery options included

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Dr. Maxwell wrote:Synths don

Dr. Maxwell wrote:
Synths don't seem to have any way to gain additional limbs. This is especially relevant for shape adjusting with flexbots.

Just use a Cyberlimb with your synthmorphs armor.

Dr. Maxwell wrote:

It is unclear if fixer swarms stack to allow rapid healing of synths.

My GM fiat would be: "With Programming: Nanofabrication test, yes they do"

Exurgents wanna eat your ass and you are low on ammo? Register to mobile gear catalogue at eldrich.host.mesh! ORDER NOW! FOR FREE PLASMA MINIMISSILE PACK! *explosive delivery options included

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
The devs are looking for

The devs are looking for typos and other mistakes. I think the lack of extra cyberlimbs for synthmorphs counts as one.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
An idea crosses my mind. How

An idea crosses my mind. How much should a pair of limbs for synthmorphs cost? I think its kinda bad to buy 2 limbs (using cyberlimb prices) for 4 MP, for a Case morph which would be 1 MP at most.

In EP 1, an extra pair of limbs had a cost less than the cost of a Case. Now, it would be worth far more than the Case.

Dr. Maxwell Dr. Maxwell's picture
DivineWrath wrote:An idea

DivineWrath wrote:
An idea crosses my mind. How much should a pair of limbs for synthmorphs cost? I think its kinda bad to buy 2 limbs (using cyberlimb prices) for 4 MP, for a Case morph which would be 1 MP at most.

In EP 1, an extra pair of limbs had a cost less than the cost of a Case. Now, it would be worth far more than the Case.

An extra set for just 1 MP makes sense. Limbs are different because its for a biomorph that is gaining stats off them, and different prices for hardware vs cyberware is why the distinction exists.

I mostly ask because it seems very strange to me that flexbots can't use shape adjustment to change the number of limbs they have.

Don't forget to check out my open source biomorph and medtech files!

ubik2 ubik2's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote:Just

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Just use a Cyberlimb with your synthmorphs armor.

This is a decent house rule, but as written, cyberlimbs are only usable by biomorph/pod/uplifts (apologies to DivineWrath if that was his point already).

It might be best to just make an item that is [Min] per pair (and not granting Vigor pool). This is the cost that was used when computing the Morph CP in the original spreadsheet.

If this were the case, the Shape Adjusting feature of the Flexbots could be used to generate limbs as needed.

CordialUltimate2 CordialUltimate2's picture
Hmm this doesn't seem to be

Hmm this doesn't seem to be written explicitly or I missed it. IIRC there is only a sentence on various types of attachment options to the structure of a Morph. Mainly biomorphs compatible but still synthmorph should be able to use all cyberware.

Exurgents wanna eat your ass and you are low on ammo? Register to mobile gear catalogue at eldrich.host.mesh! ORDER NOW! FOR FREE PLASMA MINIMISSILE PACK! *explosive delivery options included

Dr. Maxwell Dr. Maxwell's picture
CordialUltimate2 wrote:Hmm

CordialUltimate2 wrote:
Hmm this doesn't seem to be written explicitly or I missed it. IIRC there is only a sentence on various types of attachment options to the structure of a Morph. Mainly biomorphs compatible but still synthmorph should be able to use all cyberware.

Cyberware is explicitly biomorph only on page 4 of gear. This is mostly not an issue as most cyberware is also hardware, but limbs are not.

Don't forget to check out my open source biomorph and medtech files!

Pages