Morphs - Draft 1 - Open Discussion

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RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Morphs - Draft 1 - Open Discussion

Download New Morphs - Draft 1

This thread is for general feedback, comments, and discussion on this playtest material. Hit us with your thoughts!

Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture
Heavy Constructor/Flexbots

Query: Is the Heavy Constructor (Synthmorph) supposed to have the Large Frame morph trait? Given the listed height and mass it would seem to be a contender.

I'd like to go on record as saying that I really appreciated the detail put into swarmanoids. I'm a little bit hesitant at some of the changes (particularly the swarm-morph which can take a solid form) but I recognize that hesitation as stubbornness and lack of familiarity, not any obvious issues with the game design aspects.

Having said that, I CANNOT WAIT for more on the flexbot. The flexbot morph has been the weakest morph in the game for as long as I've played it. I have never seen a player play one, it has no aptitude bonuses and its capabilities as a modular system seem largely left up to GM fiat/player imagination. Ergo, in a lot of situations a player won't touch it because there are so many other morphs out there which (1) provide aptitude bonuses and (2) have 'reliable' (in the sense that there won't be any disconnect between player/GM expectations) rules sets for what they can and cannot do.

They seem to be potentially quite interesting, but that potential is handicapped because there just aren't any systems attached to them in game mechanic terms for regulating their abilities...Which creates the appearance of them not having any.

So, looking forward to some flexbot love.

Stop thinking that. I heard you.

Mephil Mephil's picture
Guard Synth

I thought Synthmorph's couldn't use Neurachem? Yet it lists it (guard synth) to have it... Of course I might just have misunderstood the rules!

EDIT: Nevermind, I spoke too soon!

The new Ultimate! edition of my digitally saveable extended character sheet!

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I really like a lot of these.

I really like a lot of these. Stuff like the griefers and mimics are great ideas.

I can't decide if the smart swarm is a good idea. It seems extremely powerful. The swarmanoid could already handle gear with robots, but if it infiltrated it couldn't. A smart swarm can infiltrate and then assemble and pick up weapons, items, etc.

Unless the flexbot gets some really great rules, we need a better flexbot with stat bonuses.

Trinary Trinary's picture
Portable Server

Quote:
It contains far more computational hardware than is found in a conventional morph, and any ego running on this morph can use any of the available infomorph software upgrades.

Oh you tease. :)
Just taking a quick look at this before the afformentioned 'infomorph upgrades' are shown; but it's already got my interest even though most of the group I play with were more than happy to pay for a Ghostrider running an Alpha Fork of my infomorph hacker. A portable server with grip pads, skinlink, and chameleon system is relatively cheap. Toss in a holoprojector and some backpack straps, a couple Ghostriders running Parallel processor enhancement, and you've got a go-anywhere hackbox. :)
Can't wait for the new infomorph info.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
@RobBoyle

@RobBoyle

Could you rename this post to "New Morphs..."? I'm finding weird that this post is simply named Morphs while its pair is called New Morphs. I'm guessing that the reason why these posts are named differently was due to an error. Currently the different names makes it seem like that this pair of posts are really about different topics.

Enigma32 Enigma32's picture
Great Ideas

I like the particular idea of the Grey especially, but they don't need the -10 to hit due to small size (1.6m is not small). Perhaps an LGM variation that is small (around 1.1m)? It could be a pod morph.

I'm taking an online class right now about brains and synapses and just last week I learned about optogenetics. I was very much amused that it'd appeared in the rules.

Biocores are an interesting idea, but perhaps it could be a trait instead. Like Rimward has the trait that lets you swap a biomorph's biological brain for a cyberbrain, maybe Transhuman can have the reverse: you can swap your cyberbrain for a biological one. That way, you can do it with any synthmorph, and pods as well, rather than just one particular type.

Just some random, rambling thoughts now, but: the bastet is an nice idea; it sort of reminds me of the hypergibbon. Will we be seeing more animal pods or stranger things off of Fortean (or Skyark, even; Troodons, T-Rexs, and others to form... ahem... Jurassic Pod? Eh? Eh? ... I'll get my coat)? Some particular morphs that I've always had questions about were the exoglots from Rimward - their morph isn't included in that book, along with the otter-human chimera that's mentioned in the Europan section. Perhaps there's room to explore those? The Samsa reminded me a bit of the exoglots (that's also a very nice literary allusion, but I don't think they'd take too kindly to being called 'vermin'), but I'm very curious about them.

Overall, very awesome. I always get excited over new morphs.

"If we succeed, we're geniuses for doing it. If we fail, we're stupid for trying it. If we succeed beyond our goal and our dreams, we're insane for reaching so high and getting there."

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
Needs more Canine Morphs.

Needs more Canine Morphs.
I've always loved the idea of a grizzled looking German Shepherd loaded with tac gear housing the Ego of some old Security Officer who worked SWAT leading a pack of Smart Dogs or Wolves.
Hell Canine morphs have other uses such as Pets, Guardians, Something interesting to sleeve into....Also belly rubs.

The Doctor The Doctor's picture
More of a writeup on the

More of a writeup on the Brainblaster would be nice, too. It is mentioned that the greyprints for them are only available from hidden mesh sites. That brings up the in-game problems of the time necessary to grow biomorphs, the specialized skillset and equipment that would be required (are morph growth tanks being added to Transhuman?), and keeping the people who grew them from ratting out people who want them.

I am glad you like the Flying Squid morph. :) I think I like your stats for them better, though.

How would Grey morphs handle in Earth-like gravity?

If at all possible, could you give a nod to Weev in the description of the Griefer morph? This is the sort of thing I think he would find hilarious.



LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Knock-off Morphs

Knock-off Morphs
Two obvious questions come to mind with regards to these rules. First, how is this supposed to work with regards to anarchist, copyfree habitats, or illegal acquisition of a morph? If there exists an open-source line of mentons, how would it interact with the knock-off rules, and, on the flip side, why not just get the open-source version of a menton instead of the inferior knock-off version?

Secondly, there are now two rulesets governing how morphs with inferior and/or superior hardware are supposed to work. From the core book, a positive trait is costs 500c per CP, while a negative trait reduces cost by 200c per CP. Given that this already models a cost-reduction for an inferior morph, are the rules for knock-off morphs supposed to be a replacement, an extension, or an alternative?

Zen Pilot
Neither endocrine control, Juice, nor Comfurt will, as written, provided bonuses to avoiding stress from extended isolation. It's not usual for morphs to have special abilities described in the fluff-text rather than their actual stats, making it hard to tell whether that immunity is a mechanical benefit, or just a description of what +10 WIL is supposed to do.

TITAN Buster
Anarchists, Barsoomians, Extropians, Scum, space-Scandinavians and the rest of @-rep don't particularly strike me as the tightest knit of groups, especially given that there Sunward, if I recall correctly, has characters note that some of these groups barely care for each other. Given this, it seems odd that impersonating a specific kind of morph will cause one to become blacklisted from the entire network. And, on a similar notice, since the social bonus comes from "fighting the good fight", it seems odd the bonus isn't applicable to hypercorp social networks, given the high number of people on those networks that have no love for the TITANs; Lunars, Martians, Fall refugees, etc.

Ayah
I like the idea behind this morph, that is, a morph that is built for medical/nursing purposes, given that there's no such morph in the game currently. It's a niche that can be filled. However, the Ayah doesn't actually seem all that suited towards medical or nursing purposes, given that there's no game mechanics to support medical skill. (Except flat bonuses to medical skills.)

From a player's perspective, the Ayah is not a medical/nursing morph, but rather an excellent morph for a social butterfly, sort of a middle ground between the more costly Sylph and the less powerful Pleasure Pod.

Thark
The multi-tasking augmentation can't be used for physical action. Hence, using it to control the extra set of arms isn't actually possible.

Bastet, Daitya, Grey, Samsa, Umibozu
These are kinda silly. The Umibozu is also perhaps the least useful thing ever. It's a biomorph made for underwater melee combat - the one place where melee combat is most disadvantaged, given the massive drag.

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

jsnead jsnead's picture
On p. 306 of the core (the

On p. 306 of the core (the Synthmorphs and Bioware sidebar) it specifically says that Synths can use a version of Neurachem (although that name is a bit silly for a robot body.

jsnead jsnead's picture
Enigma32 wrote:I like the

Enigma32 wrote:
I like the particular idea of the Grey especially, but they don't need the -10 to hit due to small size (1.6m is not small). Perhaps an LGM variation that is small (around 1.1m)? It could be a pod morph.
The Neonetic morph has the same advantage, and I've never seen them as less than maybe 1.4 to 1.5 m tall. If people think it fits better, I could change Greys to 1.4 m tall. Mainly my though is that I once had a friend who was slender and around 1.5 m tall, and she was on enough of a different scale that I could easily see her having that advantage.

Quote:
Biocores are an interesting idea, but perhaps it could be a trait instead. Like Rimward has the trait that lets you swap a biomorph's biological brain for a cyberbrain, maybe Transhuman can have the reverse: you can swap your cyberbrain for a biological one. That way, you can do it with any synthmorph, and pods as well, rather than just one particular type.
I have it listed as Gear, but it might work better as a Trait.
jsnead jsnead's picture
The Doctor wrote:More of a

The Doctor wrote:
More of a writeup on the Brainblaster would be nice, too. It is mentioned that the greyprints for them are only available from hidden mesh sites. That brings up the in-game problems of the time necessary to grow biomorphs, the specialized skillset and equipment that would be required (are morph growth tanks being added to Transhuman?), and keeping the people who grew them from ratting out people who want them.
That's an excellent point.

Quote:
How would Grey morphs handle in Earth-like gravity?
Just fine, they are slender and weak, but not that weak. I could definitely see them having trouble in Gs higher than 1.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
jsnead wrote:Enigma32 wrote:I

jsnead wrote:
Enigma32 wrote:
I like the particular idea of the Grey especially, but they don't need the -10 to hit due to small size (1.6m is not small). Perhaps an LGM variation that is small (around 1.1m)? It could be a pod morph.
The Neonetic morph has the same advantage, and I've never seen them as less than maybe 1.4 to 1.5 m tall. If people think it fits better, I could change Greys to 1.4 m tall. Mainly my though is that I once had a friend who was slender and around 1.5 m tall, and she was on enough of a different scale that I could easily see her having that advantage.

Yeah, you shouldn't just consider height. The cross section is what matters, and width is just as relevant.

I have a much bigger problem with the attack ball being considered small, it's a 60cm diameter sphere.

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
18 inches is a pretty big

18 inches is a pretty big "ten ring" but that cross section is still less than half the area of a standard silhouette target. Since any hit in EP is a good hit, (with no hit locations), you have to compare it to the whole of a normal sized biomorph. Still it's hard to believe that any hit in the sphere isn't a vitals hit.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

MephitJames MephitJames's picture
Daitya Questions

First morph I've tried out from this bunch is the daitya. Surprisingly, there are a lot of basic things that I'm trying to figure out. Is the muscle augmentation included in the SOM bonus? Near as I can tell they're the only morphs with this implant automatically.

Also, if there are one-handed items (like a sword) can you buy a larger version that doesn't suffer a penalty? And if you buy a larger melee weapon, does it do more damage?

I'm assuming the big body also weighs more than a regular transhuman, but how much more? They aren't stronger than an exalt but the extra body mass must mean extra weight. Can they ride in normal vehicles (at a tight fit and riding low) or do they strain it too much?

atamajakki atamajakki's picture
I adore a lot of these morphs

I adore a lot of these morphs.

They're all very original and get my creative juices flowing! The Grey and Samsa both created instant character concepts in my head (especially the Grey; new favorite biomorph.)

The Attack Ball has me hooked on the idea of a baby Reaper, one in more of a scouting role. I have players fighting over who gets to use a Bastet pod next, I fully intend to have an NPC show up in a Flying Squid pod next game, I'm already planning a staged Barsoomian workers' revolt using Battle Pods instead of Worker Pods, and I'm asking my GM for permission to have my Ultimate merc sleeve into a Bruiser next game. The Griefer and Freeman are both brilliant as well.

Mad props for coming up with cool pods for once.

ScienceGuy ScienceGuy's picture
High-spec flexbot!

I think a higher spec flexbot would be nice, in terms of attribute bonuses etc. (don't know if this is being saved for the dedicated section on flexbots?)

Hiihtokeskus Hiihtokeskus's picture
f-word

I was genuinely surprised to see Bastet included (and the Centaur in some ways), as I have observed EP steering clear of more traditional furry content ie. no uplifted dogs/cats and the few anthros as morphs are more exotic like the neopig and the apes etc. Just an observation, nothing more.

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
A damn shame I think.

A damn shame I think.
>.>
<.<

A lot of potential.....I always run as an Uplifted Canine myself. >.<

jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Hiihtokeskus wrote:I was

Hiihtokeskus wrote:
I was genuinely surprised to see Bastet included (and the Centaur in some ways), as I have observed EP steering clear of more traditional furry content ie. no uplifted dogs/cats and the few anthros as morphs are more exotic like the neopig and the apes etc. Just an observation, nothing more.

If you're not into them, please just say so. That's why we're doing this.

Personally, I'm not a fan of them... even if I do think Usagi Yojimbo is the greatest comic book ever made.

J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!
  http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
Well the Furry Fandom is

Well the Furry Fandom is pretty big and I've talked with a lot of Furries about Transhumanism stuff and a a good chunk of the one's I talk to are all for it, hells bells I know one guy whose in his late fifties and whose handle is that of an Anthro Bear whose in deep with computer sciences and works on 3-D Printers in his spare time who waxed philosophical on Transhuman Subjects for a couple of hours with me, the guys awesome.

Hell I've organized more then one game of it online with friends who basically did everything from sleeving into highly specialized Spacer Sheep to a person newly cracked out of Cold Storage died during the Fall who had gotten sleeved into a Anthromorphic Fox. Awesome Hilarity ensued....
Hell one character played as a Russian Wolf Cosmonaut/Engineer.

Suffice to say if your looking for a group of people who are all for Morphological Freedom and would probably be early adopters look no farther.
It's a pity that the fandom is looked down upon in many places on the net even today. :(

atamajakki atamajakki's picture
Don't cut the Bastet, my

Don't cut the Bastet, my entire group loves it!

And one of my players wants me to vouch for Neo-Elephants. "I don't care if they all died, someone has to still have the files saved on a thumb drive on Luna somewhere!"

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
Ummmmm....Pretty sure there

Ummmmm....Pretty sure there are Elephants on Luna. I remember seeing them in the art from Sunward and I think their mentioned. o.o

But yeah don't cut the Bastet. >.<
We need more Furry Morphs!

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
jackgraham wrote:If you're

jackgraham wrote:
If you're not into them, please just say so. That's why we're doing this.

Personally, I'm not a fan of them... even if I do think Usagi Yojimbo is the greatest comic book ever made.

I might have said so before, but count me against it. Anthropomorphic cats and dogs and whatever do terrible things to the thematic integrity of the game, in ways that playing an uplifted pig or beluga-whale won't.

Crazy, gonzo morphs like the Grey, Bastet, Samsa, Daitya and the alike are things that for me as a player makes it hard to take the game seriously, and as a GM makes it hard for me to present the game as serious.

The impression I get of the setting as a coherent whole would feel somewhat diminished. On one hand, cold, callous transhumanism, bigotry and horror... and on the other hand, people sleeved into cats and Greys and 1950's Bug-Eyed Monsters!

It's like... hmm... it's like if there'd existed neon-coloured anthropomorphic horses with transgenic wings in the setting. My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is a great show, but when playing Eclipse Phase, in which I try to immerse myself in a transhuman post-apocalyptic horror/conspiracy setting, seeing a neon-coloured anthropomorphic horse would completely break my immersion and ruin the mood.

And that's how I feel about anthropomorphic cats and dogs, Grey aliens, and Bug-Eyed Monsters~

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
It is a difficult balance to

It is a difficult balance to walk, however I think that you might be overstating how far it would push the setting should the official inclusion of anthropomorphic animals come about. I think that we should also be careful with our language here, particularly when describing whether we want morphs that look like animals, or actually uplifted animals.

Uplifted dogs/cats/otters/whatever do not exist in canon. That is established fact. I do not think that it is worthwhile breaking that canon to be inclusive towards a fairly niche market (the Furry fandom). Uplift as described in the setting is an extremely young science that mostly exists by picking the lowest hanging fruit possible, which I believe current animal intelligence research shows dogs and cats are most definitely not.

However, excluding the possibility of people designing morphs that look like animals, at least on the outside, seems to me to go against the nature of the setting. Eclipse Phase may be a serious horror setting. But it is also a transhumanist setting where plenty of people live their lives in an essential utopia. Not everyone (hell, I would say not most) lives there life in immediate fear of the TITANs popping up tomorrow. In canon we have people who live in giant crabs, modified ravens, cute little alien flying squirrels, and some who are trying to make mythical dragons.

Furries exist, and they tend to be extremely motivated in fulfilling their fantasies. The technologies to make a morph that has the outward appearance of an anthropomorphic dog exist in Eclipse Phase. They are going to exploit that technology. Note that the Bastet and the Centaur are not uplifted animals. They are pod morphs. Simple shells with their brains scooped out and replaced with the necessary cyberbits to run a transhuman ego. To me this makes them acceptable.

-

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
Quote:*Snip*

LatwPIAT wrote:
*Snip*

You know that doesn't make any sense right? This is a game and a setting that prides itself on Morphological Freedom. The idea that you can look and be anything you want as long as it's firmly in the realm of possibility. Be something that looks pretty human other then changing the skin tone to blood red with blue stripes to something like a walking Anthropomorphic Tiger with bio-luminescent fur or Canine with Ram horns or Horse with wings or whatever.

And personally I have no clue how a seeing a Transgenic Anthromorphic Tiger or a Wolf or whatever other kind of animal would 'Break' your immersion at all. I'd think the games Immersion would simply be enhanced. There are a lot of people who given the chance would take on more animal like appearances, this is a setting where the weird and unusual is par the course. It's no different then a person sleeved into a Nova Crab or an octopus or a Surya and so on.

CodeBreaker wrote:
*snip*

No one's saying we should break fluff and say Uplifted Cats, Dogs/Wolves, Otters and so on should be included. (I play an Uplifted Canine mostly because I had made an Uplifted canine character before Panopticon had even come out and used some Forum Stuff someone had made detailing uplifted wolves as a base that I thought was personally fascinating. I simply carried over the Uplifted Canines bit because I didn't want to lose one of my favorite PC's and simply House-Ruled it to work. But thats all it is really is a house rule.)

And regardless most Furry Fans I'd imagine would of course like uplifted animals they'd probably be FAR more partial to playing as someone who sleeved into a a specialized Biomorph or Pod.
Though yes I agree, if the technology is there then a LOT of Furries or even people who aren't Furry would probably exploit it to walk a bit on the wild side.
Which is probably the biggest reason I'd love to see more Anthromorphic Morphs....I mean we have the Bastet and the Centaur as well as a handful of mentioned Morphs. (The Garou from Gatecrashers is probably some sort of Werewolf style Morph and the various Morphs from Panopticon would fit as well.) Having a few more wouldn't hurt. Or at least mentioning them or something. >.<

Solar Solar's picture
Personally I am not a huge

Personally I am not a huge fan of the Grey, Bastet or Killer-Whale-With-Human-Bits, because they don't really track with my idea of the game as it exists in my head. Suryas are fantastic because they are unusual in a very strange, transhuman way, as are cool things like the Ceteus Synthmorph.

That said, I don't have to use them, and I can see reasons why people in the settings would make them. But I think if we are looking at there being a morph creation guide, then we don't need that stuff to be a straight up existing morph.

If it were me, I'd strip those out, and I'd strip out any morph that is just a variant on an existing morph and create a set of "varients" the way that Rimward did (Europan Neo-Orca!) I'd probably also think about jobs that we don't have morphs specialized for, and create morphs for that, because one of the things I loved about EP when I first picked it up was that holy shit, these morphs are all tools!

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
SummerHeart wrote:I play an

SummerHeart wrote:
I play an Uplifted Canine mostly because I had made an Uplifted canine character before Panopticon had even come out and used some Forum Stuff someone had made detailing uplifted wolves as a base that I thought was personally fascinating. I simply carried over the Uplifted Canines bit because I didn't want to lose one of my favorite PC's and simply House-Ruled it to work. But thats all it is really is a house rule.

There is a good chance that I wrote that, so I am glad to see that something I did sparked something somewhere :D

-

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
Heh. :p

Heh. :p
It's a pity I lost all the Uplifted Wolf Stuff. I still have plenty of other Animal Morphs though.

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
SummerHeart wrote:

SummerHeart wrote:

You know that doesn't make any sense right?

Mu.

That is to say, I reject the premises of your question. I believe that when I say that a) for me personally the Bastet (and Grey, Samsa, Daitya, and let's throw in the Umibozu too) breaks immersion, I am making sense, and b), that when I say that "anthropomorphic cats and dogs and whatever do terrible things to the thematic integrity of the game", I am making sense.

I say this a) because I have a pretty good grasp on how I feel about this, and b) because I believe my feelings on this matter are not unique.

SummerHeart wrote:
This is a game and a setting that prides itself on Morphological Freedom. The idea that you can look and be anything you want as long as it's firmly in the realm of possibility. Be something that looks pretty human other then changing the skin tone to blood red with blue stripes to something like a walking Anthropomorphic Tiger with bio-luminescent fur or Canine with Ram horns or Horse with wings or whatever.

Does it?

I mean, I haven't actually asked Rob Boyle or Brian Cross about what the game prides itself on. Maybe I've been wrong all this time, and the developers are really proud of how in their game you can change your body into whatever you please, within physical reason.

But I'm disinclined to believe that. I'm disinclined to believe that because the front of the book says "The Roleplaying Game of Transhuman Conspiracy and Horror", not "The Roleplaying Game of Morphological Freedom". I'm further disinclined to believe that because if I read about the game on, say, this website, two to three entire paragraphs are devoted to telling me how this is a political cyberpunk-ish horror setting, and the ability to change bodies is given half a sentence.

Even the design of the game, mechanically, only encourages changing your bodies as a tool towards other things; the bodies in the core book are largely towards functional capabilities; a body, a better body, an even better body, a body that's really smart, a body that's really strong, a body that's good at combat, etc.

If the game was truly about changing bodies to whatever you wanted, within the limits of the physical world, I'd have expected a lot more sleevable houses, anthropomorphic dog-cat-snake hybrids, and swarms of networked doves.

As for the setting, the majority of the setting exists, demographically, in the Inner System where such things are frowned upon - the people who go around and sleeve into giant squirrels, alien plant-animals, or giant O'Neil cylinders made from bacon are a distinct minority.

SummerHeart wrote:
And personally I have no clue how a seeing a Transgenic Anthromorphic Tiger or a Wolf or whatever other kind of animal would 'Break' your immersion at all. I'd think the games Immersion would simply be enhanced.

Are you sure you don't see how a pink, winged pony would break my immersion in a horror game?

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:That is to say

LatwPIAT wrote:
That is to say, I reject the premises of your question. I believe that when I say that a) for me personally the Bastet (and Grey, Samsa, Daitya, and let's throw in the Umibozu too) breaks immersion, I am making sense, and b), that when I say that "anthropomorphic cats and dogs and whatever do terrible things to the thematic integrity of the game", I am making sense.

I say this a) because I have a pretty good grasp on how I feel about this, and b) because I believe my feelings on this matter are not unique.

*Rolls Eyes*
No your expressing your personal view of, "I think my Point of View makes the most sense!" While completely ignoring the fact that the setting already contains some really interesting and to you, 'Immersion Breaking' elements. This is a game where even in the fluff you can make a body to however you want it to be what with Custom Biomorphs, Healing Tanks being able to change every element of your characters appearence to just about everything else you can name.
If you don't like it then well fine, don't use any of this stuff. But don't act as if your point of view is greater then anothers and that your PoV makes more 'sense'
Hell I know more then one person who upon making their morph asks, "Can I make something like looks like a Werewolf?" And I go, "Sure." then he grabs a Suit of Battle armor and a railgun machine gun and howls to Phobos while hunting down TITANS with the Barsoomians.
Had another character that played a Mountain Sheep pilot that hung around Olympus Mons as a pilot. Hell everyone had fun and the 'immersion' sure as hell wasn't broken because a few players decided to play as non-human morphs.

LatwPIAT wrote:
Does it?

I mean, I haven't actually asked Rob Boyle or Brian Cross about what the game prides itself on. Maybe I've been wrong all this time, and the developers are really proud of how in their game you can change your body into whatever you please, within physical reason.

But I'm disinclined to believe that. I'm disinclined to believe that because the front of the book says "The Roleplaying Game of Transhuman Conspiracy and Horror", not "The Roleplaying Game of Morphological Freedom". I'm further disinclined to believe that because if I read about the game on, say, this website, two to three entire paragraphs are devoted to telling me how this is a political cyberpunk-ish horror setting, and the ability to change bodies is given half a sentence.

Even the design of the game, mechanically, only encourages changing your bodies as a tool towards other things; the bodies in the core book are largely towards functional capabilities; a body, a better body, an even better body, a body that's really smart, a body that's really strong, a body that's good at combat, etc.

If the game was truly about changing bodies to whatever you wanted, within the limits of the physical world, I'd have expected a lot more sleevable houses, anthropomorphic dog-cat-snake hybrids, and swarms of networked doves.

As for the setting, the majority of the setting exists, demographically, in the Inner System where such things are frowned upon - the people who go around and sleeve into giant squirrels, alien plant-animals, or giant O'Neil cylinders made from bacon are a distinct minority.

Well sorry to say but I consider myself to be Scum. :p
So Morphological Freedom is my rallying cry. :D
But it is in fact a game that gives the player a significant amount of Morphological Freedom in what they wish to look like, be and what sort of Augmentations they wish. Resleeving and Body Tinkering is a staple of the setting and has helped shape it's culture. And just because the game contains Conspiracy and Horror doesn't mean the setting itself doesn't value Morphological Freedom.
Just because you think the fact that Resleeving/Morphlogical Freedom is a minor element to the setting to you, doesn't mean it is for other players.
Just because a game contains Horror and Conspiracy doesn't mean Furry characters can't exist.

LatwPIAT wrote:

Are you sure you don't see how a pink, winged pony would break my immersion in a horror game?

A Strawman if I've ever seen one. No one is arguing for there to be My Little Ponies in the game,like at all. -_-
What I'm suggesting are anthromorphic animal based Morphs. Whether they be Pods, Biomorphs or Pods and the inclusion of such Morphs wouldn't 'break' your immersion any.
And Eclipse Phase isn't just a Horror Game right? There are many different ways to play the game with a multitude of different themes.

Heh.
Though to be honest I did in fact make a Locus Colony and dubbed it iEquestria. :p
I had a lot of fun with it. >3

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
SummerHeart wrote:But don't

SummerHeart wrote:
But don't act as if your point of view is greater then anothers and that your PoV makes more 'sense'

You're currently acting as if your point of view is greater than and makes more sense than mine.

SummerHeart wrote:
Hell everyone had fun and the 'immersion' sure as hell wasn't broken because a few players decided to play as non-human morphs.

I have at least two friends whose immersion would be broken by morphs like that.

SummerHeart wrote:

But it is in fact a game that gives the player a significant amount of Morphological Freedom in what they wish to look like, be and what sort of Augmentations they wish. Resleeving and Body Tinkering is a staple of the setting and has helped shape it's culture. And just because the game contains Conspiracy and Horror doesn't mean the setting itself doesn't value Morphological Freedom.
Just because you think the fact that Resleeving/Morphlogical Freedom is a minor element to the setting to you, doesn't mean it is for other players.
Just because a game contains Horror and Conspiracy doesn't mean Furry characters can't exist.

SummerHeart wrote:
And Eclipse Phase isn't just a Horror Game right? There are many different ways to play the game with a multitude of different themes.

To be perfectly clear here, and to elaborate on my points, I genuinely believe that the Bastet and other "furry" morphs should not exist or be supported because the game is, at its core, a transhuman post-apocalyptic horror/conspiracy setting, with the emphasis falling on "horror".

Because I believe that the core book is a great horror setting, I want the supplements to support that horror setting, not turn the game into other things. And, to restate an earlier point, the inclusion of blatantly escapist morphs like the Bastet are thematically hostile to the setting's mood and themes of horror and conspiracy. The space and time that's spend on writing up things like the Bastet could instead be used to write things that are thematically compatible with the core book.

SummerHeart wrote:
A Strawman if I've ever seen one. No one is arguing for there to be My Little Ponies in the game,like at all. -_-

I'd mentioned pink, winged ponies. You then responded to me with "And personally I have no clue how a seeing a Transgenic Anthromorphic Tiger or a Wolf or whatever other kind of animal would 'Break' your immersion at all." (emphasis mine). So I chose a pony with transgenic wings and pink skin.

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C-rep +1

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:You're

LatwPIAT wrote:
You're currently acting as if your point of view is greater than and makes more sense than mine.

Considering this a Transhuman Setting where you can tinker with your Morphs Appearance, Create Custom Morphs, Sleeve into everything from Star Ships to Xeno-Plant Podmorphs to Swarms of Small Robots...The belief that the inclusion of some Anthromorphic Morphs will somehow ruin the setting is silly.

LatwPIAT wrote:

I have at least two friends whose immersion would be broken by morphs like that.

Okay? :/
If your friends 'immersion' in a Transhuman Setting is broken by the inclusion of Anthromorphic Morphs then I can't really help them.
I don't see it as a problem and I know plenty of others who don't see it as a problem.

LatwPIAT wrote:
To be perfectly clear here, and to elaborate on my points, I genuinely believe that the Bastet and other "furry" morphs should not exist or be supported because the game is, at its core, a transhuman post-apocalyptic horror/conspiracy setting, with the emphasis falling on "horror".

Because I believe that the core book is a great horror setting, I want the supplements to support that horror setting, not turn the game into other things. And, to restate an earlier point, the inclusion of blatantly escapist morphs like the Bastet are thematically hostile to the setting's mood and themes of horror and conspiracy. The space and time that's spend on writing up things like the Bastet could instead be used to write things that are thematically compatible with the core book.


Thats not only stupid it's bullshit. Even if we went with the line of thinking that the game is strictly supposed to be 'Horror' setting, (Which for damn sure it isn't.) then why the HELL does that preclude the existence of Anthromorphic Critter Morphs? Why can't we have a Bastet in a EP Game that focuses on the horror aspects of the setting? What the difference between a Bastet Morph and a Lunar Flier? or a Neanderthal? Or an Alpiner? Or a Ruster? That the Bastet has Fur and a Snout and covered in fur? There's no logical reason to exclude Anthromorphic Morphs from the setting at all, your reasons are simply, "They break immersion!" while not explaining how they could possibly break immersion in a game where customizing your body to look like anything you like is common along with a plethora of exotic and interesting morphs already available while your other 'justification' merely being "I don't feel it's compatible with my strict definition of what the setting is all about!" Until you can explain to me how being Sleeved into a Bastet (Or the Skinethetic Beowulf or Neo Canine morphs I love so much from the homebrew section.) Are incompatible with a 'Horror' setting or a Conspiracy setting.

LatwPIAT wrote:
I'd mentioned pink, winged ponies. You then responded to me with "And personally I have no clue how a seeing a Transgenic Anthromorphic Tiger or a Wolf or whatever other kind of animal would 'Break' your immersion at all." (emphasis mine). So I chose a pony with transgenic wings and pink skin.

/quote]

You were mentioning MLP:FIM Ponies when no one had even suggested creating such Morphs. -_-
You were deliberately misrepresenting my position of, "How can playing as a Anthromorphic Tiger Combat Morph break your Immersion." and then you start wailing how people are going to be making My Little Ponies. :/
Take your strawman elsewhere.

Though to be honest making an Anthromorphic Horse with Wings to operate on luna would be pretty badass. Call it a Pegasi Morph or something. Would fit a Greek Mythology Morph line schema.

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
SummerHeart wrote:Considering

SummerHeart wrote:
Considering this a Transhuman Setting where you can tinker with your Morphs Appearance, Create Custom Morphs, Sleeve into everything from Star Ships to Xeno-Plant Podmorphs to Swarms of Small Robots...The belief that the inclusion of some Anthromorphic Morphs will somehow ruin the setting is silly.

The morphs you can already sleeve into in the setting pretty much all have one of two things in common. Either they were the type of morph you were born with, or they are a tool towards a purpose. There are flats, which are the kind of morph a lot of people were born with. There are splicers, which a lot of other people were born with, and a lot of sleeve into.

There are Mentons and Olympians and Sylphs, which are tools for mental, physical and social tasks. There are Hibernoids and Bouncers, which are adapted to space environments - and Rusters and Alpiners to Martian environments. There are Furies and Ghosts, which are tools for warfare and combat. There's a cheap pod body for manual labour, and another cheap pod body for sex work. There's a giant freaky crab-bug thing that's a specialized tool for vacuum work. There are neo-avians, neo-homonids, octomorphs, neo-pigs, neanderthals and the long line of uplifted whale morphs; those are all the type of body someone was born with. Then there are a variety of robot morphs, all of which are tools with a purpose; the Gargoyle for sensory work, the Xu Fu and Kite for exploration, Cases, Synths and Steels to give people bodies, a lot of them are probably for combat or similar lines of work.

All of them are tools. Tools made to meet some purpose. I can see that being a major part of the setting, and I like that as a major part of the setting. It emphasizes how useful having the right body for the right line of work is.

The Bastet, meanwhile, is not a tool, and it's not the body someone was born with. It exists purely as an escapist fantasy. It's not the kind of thing that should be taking up space in the "morphs" section of the player's guide. I'd be fine with the Bastet being mentioned as an exotic kind of smart pet, but as a morph it's a solution looking for a problem, forcing itself as square peg into a round hole and making dubious claims about being great for infiltration.

SummerHeart wrote:
If your friends 'immersion' in a Transhuman Setting is broken by the inclusion of Anthromorphic Morphs then I can't really help them.
I don't see it as a problem and I know plenty of others who don't see it as a problem.

And, again, I know "plenty of others" who do see it as a problem. These are people, like me, who find that the inclusion of morphs like the Bastet would not fit well with their expectations for the game, and as such, it breaks their immersion. And these are not unreasonable expectations for the game.

SummerHeart wrote:
Thats not only stupid it's bullshit. Even if we went with the line of thinking that the game is strictly supposed to be 'Horror' setting, (Which for damn sure it isn't.)

It says right there on the front of the book. "Horror." The front cover is a person in a space-suit being snatched up by scary-looking tentacle. The game, mechanically, lifts several core elements from Call of Cthulhu. Almost everything written in the book emphasizes the horror angle. The default campaign is one of encountering and fighting against the main horror element of the setting. The game is, mechanically, built around the assumption this is what the players will be doing. In the back of the book in the GM's section, there is half a page devoted to explaining how to set up themes and moods of horror. Even the section about transhuman themes is heavily devoted to explaining how those themes can be used for personal horror.

Oh, sure, you can run other things in the setting or with the system, but that doesn't mean the game should cater to those game-styles in a supplement meant for the core game; almost anything can be run in the system or setting of any given RPG, but that doesn't mean Call of Cthulhu needs rules for playing Elder Things, or the Vampire: the Requiem player's guide should spend time on rules for spaceships and laser pistols.

SummerHeart wrote:
your reasons are simply, "They break immersion!" while not explaining how they could possibly break immersion [...] while your other 'justification' merely being "I don't feel it's compatible with my strict definition of what the setting is all about!" Until you can explain to me how being Sleeved into a Bastet (Or the Skinethetic Beowulf or Neo Canine morphs I love so much from the homebrew section.) Are incompatible with a 'Horror' setting or a Conspiracy setting.

I believe you'll find I've explained this repeatedly. I will, for your convenience, repeat and elaborate. Again. Players and GMs have expectations for the internal consistency, mood, theme and gravitas (or "seriousness") of a game. Featuring the kind of blatant escapist fantasy that the Bastet and uplifted dogs are in that kind of game would not be consistent with the kind of setting Eclipse Phase presents.

It diminishes the horror of the setting, and it diminishes the gravitas of the serious conflicts in the setting. This is bad.

SummerHeart wrote:
in a game where customizing your body to look like anything you like is common along with a plethora of exotic and interesting morphs already available

Cosmetic augmentation is more common in the setting than in the real world, yet. This does not mean that extensive and extreme morphological cosmetic surgery is common. Especially not when sleeving into a heavily modified or non-human morph (like the Bastet) is more stressful than losing your best friend, wife or husband.

SummerHeart wrote:
You were mentioning MLP:FIM Ponies when no one had even suggested creating such Morphs. -_-
You were deliberately misrepresenting my position of, "How can playing as a Anthromorphic Tiger Combat Morph break your Immersion." and then you start wailing how people are going to be making My Little Ponies. :/
Take your strawman elsewhere.

I'd mentioned pink ponies with wings as an example of something that would break my immersion. You said that this complaint was silly, and said that you couldn't understand how any kind of animal morph could break my immersion. I then mentioned the pink pony with wings again.

Then you said I was making a strawman argument.

I object to this. I do not believe I am presenting a strawman argument, because my claim that having pink ponies with wings was immersion-breaking was something you called silly. You then also went on to argue that the existence of winged (though not, to your credit, pink) ponies in the setting would be totally badass.

(Also, seriously, what's with the completely random capitalization? It's difficult to read.)

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Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:Are you sure

LatwPIAT wrote:
Are you sure you don't see how a pink, winged pony would break my immersion in a horror game?

Ok so here's the logic:

P1. The technology to create pink, winged ponies exist.
P2. People who want to and have the means to create pink, winged ponied exist.
C1. Pink, winged ponies exist.

Now you need to tell us how that logic works in some settings and not in a horror game.

Because it doesn't break immersion. Your worst example is realistic if some people want that sort of morph, that's all it takes. And the books already mention people that are strange like that.

Now, you go ahead and ban your players from using it. If you're running horror I see how a player in such a morph would be annoying. Just say he can't have it. One of the dumbest thing I did as a GM was to try running a mirror shades and trenchcoats Shadowrun campaign and let a player have a freaky PC that was obese and had a compulsion to touch strangers. That doesn't mean such people don't exist, or that traits that describe such people mechanically (and give them more points) shouldn't exist.

atamajakki atamajakki's picture
Listen; I'm down with furries

Listen; I'm down with furries. There's nothing wrong with them, or anthropomorphic anything, none of that. But why not just get an exalt or a sylph and get Biosculpting. You can fluff it; there's no need to morphologically cater to one fetish/subculture if it lacks a strong in-universe reason. Bringing in anthro morphs for things like foxes or wolves opens the door for a certain type that is not very good for strong role playing, and without canon uplifts that fit it, there's little reason for it.

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:The morphs you

LatwPIAT wrote:
The morphs you can already sleeve into in the setting pretty much all have one of two things in common. Either they were the type of morph you were born with, or they are a tool towards a purpose. There are flats, which are the kind of morph a lot of people were born with. There are splicers, which a lot of other people were born with, and a lot of sleeve into.

There are Mentons and Olympians and Sylphs, which are tools for mental, physical and social tasks. There are Hibernoids and Bouncers, which are adapted to space environments - and Rusters and Alpiners to Martian environments. There are Furies and Ghosts, which are tools for warfare and combat. There's a cheap pod body for manual labour, and another cheap pod body for sex work. There's a giant freaky crab-bug thing that's a specialized tool for vacuum work. There are neo-avians, neo-homonids, octomorphs, neo-pigs, neanderthals and the long line of uplifted whale morphs; those are all the type of body someone was born with. Then there are a variety of robot morphs, all of which are tools with a purpose; the Gargoyle for sensory work, the Xu Fu and Kite for exploration, Cases, Synths and Steels to give people bodies, a lot of them are probably for combat or similar lines of work.

All of them are tools. Tools made to meet some purpose. I can see that being a major part of the setting, and I like that as a major part of the setting. It emphasizes how useful having the right body for the right line of work is.

The Bastet, meanwhile, is not a tool, and it's not the body someone was born with. It exists purely as an escapist fantasy. It's not the kind of thing that should be taking up space in the "morphs" section of the player's guide. I'd be fine with the Bastet being mentioned as an exotic kind of smart pet, but as a morph it's a solution looking for a problem, forcing itself as square peg into a round hole and making dubious claims about being great for infiltration.


*Rolls Eyes*
Bastet can be used for Intimidation Factor, they can be used for Body Guard Work, they can be used for Combat they can be used for Spying as well. Someone didn't do their damn homework and actually read the Bastet Information.

And regardless that doesn't change the fact that bodies aren't merely tools in this setting. I find it amusing how you think that an Anthro Morph would be a mere 'escapist fantasy' when they could be made infinitely practical as any other Morph you care to name here. Your just grasping at straws in an attempt to preclude morphs you personally don't agree with. Not because of any practical justification but because they 'break immersion' an incredibly vague term that only fits your perspective.

LatwPIAT wrote:
And, again, I know "plenty of others" who do see it as a problem. These are people, like me, who find that the inclusion of morphs like the Bastet would not fit well with their expectations for the game, and as such, it breaks their immersion. And these are not unreasonable expectations for the game.

They are unreasonable because I know just as many, if not more people who would be thrilled for such an inclusion as the Bastet or other Feral Type or Anthro Type Morphs.
And once again your using that incredibly vague term of, "Immersion" to justify your arguments.
I mean hells bells.
This is a game were you can play a Scurrier Morph or a Nova Crab . Or a Robotic Octopus or anything just as weird and bizarre. If the inclusion of something like the Bastet is enough to 'ruin' you and your friends utterly bizarre notions of what EP is about of the game then thats your problem.

Personally? I'd love to see the Dev's throw Furry Fans a few bones here or there as long as it's done well. I don't see how the addition of such elements detracts or harms the game.

LatwPIAT wrote:

It says right there on the front of the book. "Horror." The front cover is a person in a space-suit being snatched up by scary-looking tentacle. The game, mechanically, lifts several core elements from Call of Cthulhu. Almost everything written in the book emphasizes the horror angle. The default campaign is one of encountering and fighting against the main horror element of the setting. The game is, mechanically, built around the assumption this is what the players will be doing. In the back of the book in the GM's section, there is half a page devoted to explaining how to set up themes and moods of horror. Even the section about transhuman themes is heavily devoted to explaining how those themes can be used for personal horror.

Oh, sure, you can run other things in the setting or with the system, but that doesn't mean the game should cater to those game-styles in a supplement meant for the core game; almost anything can be run in the system or setting of any given RPG, but that doesn't mean Call of Cthulhu needs rules for playing Elder Things, or the Vampire: the Requiem player's guide should spend time on rules for spaceships and laser pistols.


The Setting while having some amazingly well written and thoughtful elements of Cosmic Horror you seem to ignore the fact that this is a game heavily infused in Transhumanism and Science Fiction. This isn't some half baked 'Cthonian Stars.' game. I've always worked and played under the idea that first and foremost this is a Transhumanist Setting and below that a subtle element of horror to it.
You have to remember that the overwhelming majority of Transhumanity has no clue the Cosmic Horror that underlies the setting even exists. They have no clue that the Exsurgent Virus is a thing or that Psi Powers are real. The only thing they have to really worry about are TITAN Remnants here and there.

And how the hell do you even think that the inclusion of Anthro Morphs would be anything even remotely like the inclusion of playing rules for Elder things?

And you obviously don't know OWoD Very well because there are rules for that sort of stuff. (Considering it's a shared setting and thus is nudged up agaisnt some of the weirder Lines.)

LatwPIAT wrote:
I believe you'll find I've explained this repeatedly. I will, for your convenience, repeat and elaborate. Again. Players and GMs have expectations for the internal consistency, mood, theme and gravitas (or "seriousness") of a game. Featuring the kind of blatant escapist fantasy that the Bastet and uplifted dogs are in that kind of game would not be consistent with the kind of setting Eclipse Phase presents.

It diminishes the horror of the setting, and it diminishes the gravitas of the serious conflicts in the setting. This is bad.


You've explained it in a rather piss poor manner I know that much.
And you still are in fact.
I fail to see how being able to sleeve in a Bastet or a Canine 'harms' the seriousness of the setting.
I also fail to see how it's a problem of Internal Consistency. If a player is able to sleeve into a Scurrier a Nova Crab a Whip-Lash Pod and so on how the HELL are players not expected to being able to sleeve in a fragging Big Cat or a Canine? How the hell can you justify not being able to sleeve in Anthromorphic bodies?
Oh. Thats right. You can't. -_-
There is absolutely no in-universe justification why a person can't sleeve into one of those things and we know from Fluff Sources that people can sleeve into animals anyway.

LatwPIAT wrote:
Cosmetic augmentation is more common in the setting than in the real world, yet. This does not mean that extensive and extreme morphological cosmetic surgery is common. Especially not when sleeving into a heavily modified or non-human morph (like the Bastet) is more stressful than losing your best friend, wife or husband.

Where the ever loving fuck do you even get this idea from? :/
It's a three day dip in the Healing Vat to make completely radical changes to the body, adding limbs and radically changing height and weight. These are no mere tweaks.

And where the hell do you get THAT last bit from? Alienation Tests only cause Stress if you fail them. :/
And even then it's not that bad.

LatwPIAT wrote:

I'd mentioned pink ponies with wings as an example of something that would break my immersion. You said that this complaint was silly, and said that you couldn't understand how any kind of animal morph could break my immersion. I then mentioned the pink pony with wings again.

Then you said I was making a strawman argument.

I object to this. I do not believe I am presenting a strawman argument, because my claim that having pink ponies with wings was immersion-breaking was something you called silly. You then also went on to argue that the existence of winged (though not, to your credit, pink) ponies in the setting would be totally badass.

(Also, seriously, what's with the completely random capitalization? It's difficult to read.)

No one ever brought up 'pink ponies with wings.' before you did. No one even suggested as that being a canon Morph of any kind your bringing up that point for the sole reason of comparing it to the Bastet morph as a means of making it look silly.

Your argument is the definition of a strawman argument.

And you obviously can't read because I said Horse. Not pony. My Morph suggestion was an Anthromorphic horse with wings. I don't see that as silly. :/

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
atamajakki wrote:Listen; I'm

atamajakki wrote:
Listen; I'm down with furries. There's nothing wrong with them, or anthropomorphic anything, none of that. But why not just get an exalt or a sylph and get Biosculpting. You can fluff it; there's no need to morphologically cater to one fetish/subculture if it lacks a strong in-universe reason. Bringing in anthro morphs for things like foxes or wolves opens the door for a certain type that is not very good for strong role playing, and without canon uplifts that fit it, there's little reason for it.

You know while porn is an element of the fandom is prevalent it's by no means the point of the. >.<

And thats what I've been doing up till now. Outside of a few enhancements to sensory organs (Scent being the most important.)
But it'd be nice to have some fluffy and crunchy bits for them.
And excuse me? :/
I take offense at the last part. -_-
My Morph is typically a simple canine with gecko paw pads for running around in microgravity. >:3
And I'm a rather strong role player.

Smokeskin wrote:
LatwPIAT wrote:
Are you sure you don't see how a pink, winged pony would break my immersion in a horror game?

Ok so here's the logic:

P1. The technology to create pink, winged ponies exist.
P2. People who want to and have the means to create pink, winged ponied exist.
C1. Pink, winged ponies exist.

Now you need to tell us how that logic works in some settings and not in a horror game.

Because it doesn't break immersion. Your worst example is realistic if some people want that sort of morph, that's all it takes. And the books already mention people that are strange like that.

Now, you go ahead and ban your players from using it. If you're running horror I see how a player in such a morph would be annoying. Just say he can't have it. One of the dumbest thing I did as a GM was to try running a mirror shades and trenchcoats Shadowrun campaign and let a player have a freaky PC that was obese and had a compulsion to touch strangers. That doesn't mean such people don't exist, or that traits that describe such people mechanically (and give them more points) shouldn't exist.

Thank you.
Your points are incredibly concise and well thought out in refuting PIATS points.

Heh.
I also had to learn when to tell Players no for stuff. Didn't take me long to find that out either. :p
Though my players were never that bad. >3

Hiihtokeskus Hiihtokeskus's picture
jackgraham wrote:If you're

jackgraham wrote:
If you're not into them, please just say so. That's why we're doing this.

Personally, I'm not a fan of them... even if I do think Usagi Yojimbo is the greatest comic book ever made.

Well, as you can see, topic is a little controversial. I'm with the camp "kill them with fire", so yeah, I'm not into them. But in the end, we all take what we want and discard the rest in our games. For example, there is no pandora gates, the slime mold aliens (forgot the name) nor asyncs in my games. If there were some things in the books I perceived as furry wish-fulfillment, those wouldn't be in my games either.

So, while personally, see "kill them with fire", if there's a perceived demand for this, go for it. What I'd suggest though, is that cut all the furryish stuff from Transhuman, and make a completely different supplement at a later date just dedicated to all the fluffy and sexy yiffing stuff. Hell, throw up a kickstarter for it and you'll hit the goal in a day when the word gets around. I'd figure you'd get to cherry pick the artist talent too, if your own isn't into drawing horse penises.

Jet Black Jet Black's picture
Personally, I think that

Personally, I think that Furries in general are more than a little bit creepy, so I'm also not a fan of those anthropomorphic animal morphs. There is really no good in-game justification for something like the Bastet, Daitya, Grey, Pixie or the Umibozu - whatever they can do can be done equally well or even better by humanoid morphs / pods or "practical" synthmorphs.

For example, why use a Bastet, which has great difficulties handling equipment made for human hands, when you can have a far superior Ghost or Infiltrator morph? Why use an Umibozu with its extremely narrow focus when one can have a far more flexible Cetus synthmorph instead?

Strangely, I like the Samsa because it's weird and alien and intimidating and can lead to cool "WTF???" moments for the players...

I was always impressed by the selection of morphs in the EP Core and Sunward because I consider all of them fitting and useful tools for their chosen areas of expertise - even the Suryas! Unfortunately, some of the morphs planned for Transhuman fail in this regard, at least in my eyes. Also, I would be sad to see EP pandering to Furries or other fetish subcultures.

"You're gonna carry that weight"

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
I feel that arguing against

I feel that arguing against the inclusion of morphs like the Bastet and the Umibozu with suggestions that they break the feeling of morphs being tools is unsustainable under examination. Eclipse Phase already contains plenty of exotic and strange morphs that are used by a minority of people. It already accomplishes 'wish fulfilment' for plenty of people. Having some morphs that happen to include appeal to furries isn't breaking new ground.

As an example, what already exists in canon; The Ripwing, the Scurrier, the Whiplash, the Chickcharnie, the Hypergibbon, the Takko, the Sundiver. All are morphs that don't really need to exist, but do because the Eclipse Phase universe is filled with eccentric transhumanist who wish to experience life from a different perspective. None of which, I feel, break the thematic appeal of Eclipse Phase being a horror game.

In fact I would argue that the inclusion of some of these morphs increases the themes of horror in the setting. This is how far transhumanity has come. We have gotten to the point that people are willing to live their lives as overgrown house cats, as robotic cephalopods, and as transgenic alien squirrels. That is really weird. It is even weirder that there are entire communities that are completely accepting of those people.

I also think that we might want to tone down the furry shaming. You might find it squicky (I kind of do), that isn't reason to resort to aggressive rhetoric. Especially rhetoric that suggests that all of the furry fandom is obsessed with the yiff side of things. Plenty of people have no investment in the sexual side of the fandom. None at all. And frankly I think that that horse penis comment is kind of out of taste.

Edit: Actually, in my ongoing attempts to push out of the passive voice, I find it extremely out of taste. Seriously, quit with the subculture shaming.

And it isn't even pandering! Or at least, it isn't pandering to a degree that is out of place of any of the other pandering that occurs in the setting. We already pander to the libertarian types (Extropia), we already pander to the sex-positive fetish-loving anarchists (Scum), hell, we already kind of pander to the furry fandom (All those uplifts). The bastet doesn't even need to be about the furry subculture, it could just as easily be seen as pandering to the new age spirit animal crowd.

Putting in the Bastet isn't suddenly going to bring hordes of diaper wearing fox on horse sex enthusiasts down on us all. It just gives people who like the idea of being sleeved into a cat (which has a certain appeal, given how royally cats are treated) an avenue to have a little bit of fun.

-

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
SummerHeart wrote:*Rolls Eyes

SummerHeart wrote:
*Rolls Eyes*
Bastet can be used for Intimidation Factor, they can be used for Body Guard Work, they can be used for Combat they can be used for Spying as well. Someone didn't do their damn homework and actually read the Bastet Information.

I did read the Bastet information. And then I rolled my eyes and laughed. Tell me, in what function are the Bastets useful for what it says they're supposed to be useful for? Body guards? Combat morphs? They don't have hands. They're terrible combat morphs, because they can't use any kind of firearm. They can, at best, take a bullet for someone else, which there are thousands of other morphs better suited for; even the Exalt be a better body-guard, since it can hold a gun.

And espionage? Really? What is it good for there? It's a giant tiger. Given that people in the setting can already puppet smart pets, that's simply not going to work because you'd be stupid to loudly announce your evil plans in front of a giant tiger you don't know.

SummerHeart wrote:
The Setting while having some amazingly well written and thoughtful elements of Cosmic Horror you seem to ignore the fact that this is a game heavily infused in Transhumanism and Science Fiction. This isn't some half baked 'Cthonian Stars.' game. I've always worked and played under the idea that first and foremost this is a Transhumanist Setting and below that a subtle element of horror to it.
You have to remember that the overwhelming majority of Transhumanity has no clue the Cosmic Horror that underlies the setting even exists. They have no clue that the Exsurgent Virus is a thing or that Psi Powers are real. The only thing they have to really worry about are TITAN Remnants here and there.

The vast majority of people in Call of Cthulhu doesn't know about the Old Ones, but that doesn't mean it's not a horror game. And if you take a horror game and then don't play it as a horror game, I don't think your opinion on what should be in the player's handbook for a horror game matters much.

SummerHeart wrote:
And you obviously don't know OWoD Very well because there are rules for that sort of stuff. (Considering it's a shared setting and thus is nudged up agaisnt some of the weirder Lines.)

You have the gall to accuse me of not being able to read? Because I said Vampire: the Requiem, and I said VtR's player's handbook. And I feel rather safe in saying that none of the nVampire player's guides have rules for laser pistols or spaceships in them. Heck, there aren't rules for laser pistols or spaceships in the VtM player's guide either.

Rules for spaceships and laser pistols weren't in the player's handbook for a very good reason. It's not what the game is about, so writing them up would be a waste of space better spent on the nuances of navigating Vampire society. It's just the same with animal morphs in Eclipse Phase. Someone, somewhere might be doing it, but that doesn't mean it should be featured in a handbook for playing a horror game.

SummerHeart wrote:
I fail to see how being able to sleeve in a Bastet or a Canine 'harms' the seriousness of the setting.
I also fail to see how it's a problem of Internal Consistency. If a player is able to sleeve into a Scurrier a Nova Crab a Whip-Lash Pod and so on how the HELL are players not expected to being able to sleeve in a fragging Big Cat or a Canine? How the hell can you justify not being able to sleeve in Anthromorphic bodies?
Oh. Thats right. You can't. -_-
There is absolutely no in-universe justification why a person can't sleeve into one of those things and we know from Fluff Sources that people can sleeve into animals anyway.

The space that would be spent on escapist fantasies like anthropomorphic animal morphs is better spent on things that maintain the mood and gravitas of the setting. Putting sleevable bio-luminescent tigers in the morph section puts the emphasis on and wastes space on something that doesn't add to the mood of the setting, and detracts from the gravitas. Given that you can, should you absolutely want to, puppet any smart animal, adding extra rules for a specific smart animal that has no real purpose is a waste of space, and a waste of space that doesn't even mesh well with the rest of the setting.

It has no place in the player's handbook, except as a single line note somewhere about how sleeving into smart tigers sometimes can be useful.

LatwPIAT wrote:

And where the hell do you get THAT last bit from? Alienation Tests only cause Stress if you fail them. :/
And even then it's not that bad.

Yes it is. The average person will fail the Alienation Test 85% of the time when sleeving into a Bastet, which will, on average, cause them 3 SV. This is more stressful than losing your best friend.

SummerHeart wrote:
And you obviously can't read because I said Horse. Not pony. My Morph suggestion was an Anthromorphic horse with wings. I don't see that as silly. :/

...you are aware that ponies are a type of horse, right? And that in this case, the distinction is rather trivial?

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
Hiihtokeskus wrote:

Hiihtokeskus wrote:

Well, as you can see, topic is a little controversial. I'm with the camp "kill them with fire", so yeah, I'm not into them. But in the end, we all take what we want and discard the rest in our games. For example, there is no pandora gates, the slime mold aliens (forgot the name) nor asyncs in my games. If there were some things in the books I perceived as furry wish-fulfillment, those wouldn't be in my games either.

So, while personally, see "kill them with fire", if there's a perceived demand for this, go for it. What I'd suggest though, is that cut all the furryish stuff from Transhuman, and make a completely different supplement at a later date just dedicated to all the fluffy and sexy yiffing stuff. Hell, throw up a kickstarter for it and you'll hit the goal in a day when the word gets around. I'd figure you'd get to cherry pick the artist talent too, if your own isn't into drawing horse penises.

:/
No one here is asking for the Dev's to make any 'Sexy Yiffing' products or to produce porn or anything like. Hell I've been extremely careful in trying to steer away from that stuff because not every furry fan is even into that element of the fandom, let alone people outside of it.
I mean seriously what the fuck? O_o
'Drawing Horse Penises.'
'Kill them all with fire.'
Do you know how fucking rude that is? You know their are plenty of great Furry Artists out there,those artists don't deserve their craft being harangued like that.
And no one needs to go around saying, "Kill them with fire." either.

Jet Black wrote:
*Snip*

Jeez! What the hell is this?!
I thought the furry bashing days were long over. -_-
And to have it pop up on forum dedicated to Transhumanism? O_o

CodeBreaker wrote:
I feel that arguing against the inclusion of morphs like the Bastet and the Umibozu with suggestions that they break the feeling of morphs being tools is unsustainable under examination. Eclipse Phase already contains plenty of exotic and strange morphs that are used by a minority of people. It already accomplishes 'wish fulfilment' for plenty of people. Having some morphs that happen to include appeal to furries isn't breaking new ground.

As an example, what already exists in canon; The Ripwing, the Scurrier, the Whiplash, the Chickcharnie, the Hypergibbon, the Takko, the Sundiver. All are morphs that don't really need to exist, but do because the Eclipse Phase universe is filled with eccentric transhumanist who wish to experience life from a different perspective. None of which, I feel, break the thematic appeal of Eclipse Phase being a horror game.

In fact I would argue that the inclusion of some of these morphs increases the themes of horror in the setting. This is how far transhumanity has come. We have gotten to the point that people are willing to live their lives as overgrown house cats, as robotic cephalopods, and as transgenic alien squirrels. That is really weird. It is even weirder that there are entire communities that are completely accepting of those people.

I also think that we might want to tone down the furry shaming. You might find it squicky (I kind of do), that isn't reason to resort to aggressive rhetoric. Especially rhetoric that suggests that all of the furry fandom is obsessed with the yiff side of things. Plenty of people have no investment in the sexual side of the fandom. None at all. And frankly I think that that horse penis comment is kind of out of taste.

Edit: Actually, in my ongoing attempts to push out of the passive voice, I find it extremely out of taste. Seriously, quit with the subculture shaming.

And it isn't even pandering! Or at least, it isn't pandering to a degree that is out of place of any of the other pandering that occurs in the setting. We already pander to the libertarian types (Extropia), we already pander to the sex-positive fetish-loving anarchists (Scum), hell, we already kind of pander to the furry fandom (All those uplifts). The bastet doesn't even need to be about the furry subculture, it could just as easily be seen as pandering to the new age spirit animal crowd.

Putting in the Bastet isn't suddenly going to bring hordes of diaper wearing fox on horse sex enthusiasts down on us all. It just gives people who like the idea of being sleeved into a cat (which has a certain appeal, given how royally cats are treated) an avenue to have a little bit of fun.

Thank you. :(

At least someone here isn't into Furry Bashing. Not exactly what I was expecting when I decided to join up to help with the playtest. I've been a fan of Eclipse Phase since the day it came out all the way back in 09 and I've lurked on this site for years, and hell yes I'm a Furry. I've introduced dozens of other furries to the setting and many of them love everything about this setting and what it means.
So I'm a little surprised and shocked at the reaction...

I mean hells bells I'm not asking for the goddamned moon. All of this started with a Dev saying "If your into it then say so. This is why were doing all of this."
I just thought it'd be nice for Furry fans to get a little something as long as it fit the material and wasn't obtrusive.

Anyway. Thanks for the show of support Code.

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
There will always be bigots.

There will always be bigots. A lot of people had a hard time accepting black people and women once, these days it is alternative sexual preferences.

That they take their bias to the extreme that they assume that humanoid animals must be a fetish thing is just plain weird.

Anyways, their position is just so completely unrealistic that it is hardly worth replying to. Of course there are such morphs in EP, there's a market for it and it is tecnically no problem.

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Jet Black wrote:Personally, I

Jet Black wrote:
Personally, I think that Furries in general are more than a little bit creepy, so I'm also not a fan of those anthropomorphic animal morphs. There is really no good in-game justification for something like the Bastet, Daitya, Grey, Pixie or the Umibozu - whatever they can do can be done equally well or even better by humanoid morphs / pods or "practical" synthmorphs.

Yeah. Sort of like how unrealistic it is that people get piercings or tattoos. It doesn't let them do their job any better and some employers might not even want to hire them, who would do such a thing to themselves?

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:I did read the

LatwPIAT wrote:
I did read the Bastet information. And then I rolled my eyes and laughed. Tell me, in what function are the Bastets useful for what it says they're supposed to be useful for? Body guards? Combat morphs? They don't have hands. They're terrible combat morphs, because they can't use any kind of firearm. They can, at best, take a bullet for someone else, which there are thousands of other morphs better suited for; even the Exalt be a better body-guard, since it can hold a gun.

And espionage? Really? What is it good for there? It's a giant tiger. Given that people in the setting can already puppet smart pets, that's simply not going to work because you'd be stupid to loudly announce your evil plans in front of a giant tiger you don't know.


*Rolls Eyes*
Give it a back mounted combat harness and slave a swivel mounted turret weapon to a PAN and have some fun. You can carry heavier weaponry on stable platform. Hell maybe add in some hip VLS mounted Seekers. Hell have the MUSE handle the targeting and point defense while the Bastet Ego gets in close to kick ass.
Or for more close in personal fun toxin laden claws and Eelware paws, artificial diamond teeth. Give it some Adrenal Boosters, Heavy Bioweave Armor and Medichines and your set.
Hell you could probably even give it specially modified armor.

Or you could forgo some of that and just give it a harness with a cybernetic arm or even better a Wrist-Mounted Tools thats linked to the Bastet access jack so the Morph can control it.

Just because your not imaginative enough to figure out a way to make these sort of Morphs work wonderfully in your game doesn't mean the rest of us can't.
Hell you could even give it some armor if you wanted, an enclosed helmet, modified spray armor (Giant Latex Kitty. :p) Smart Skin or maybe even light body armor. (Drone assisted suiting up may be needed.)

LatwPIAT wrote:
The vast majority of people in Call of Cthulhu doesn't know about the Old Ones, but that doesn't mean it's not a horror game. And if you take a horror game and then don't play it as a horror game, I don't think your opinion on what should be in the player's handbook for a horror game matters much.

Yes but unlike Call of Cthulu the setting doesn't really delve into the society and culture that the characters live in to such a degree whilst ignoring or underscoring the Horror elements of the setting. I mean hell this is a game that you can run a proper Valles-New Shanghai Noir game if you wanted and never even touch on the Horror elements of the game such is the detail the Developers put into the setting.

LatwPIAT wrote:
You have the gall to accuse me of not being able to read? Because I said Vampire: the Requiem, and I said VtR's player's handbook. And I feel rather safe in saying that none of the nVampire player's guides have rules for laser pistols or spaceships in them. Heck, there aren't rules for laser pistols or spaceships in the VtM player's guide either.

Rules for spaceships and laser pistols weren't in the player's handbook for a very good reason. It's not what the game is about, so writing them up would be a waste of space better spent on the nuances of navigating Vampire society. It's just the same with animal morphs in Eclipse Phase. Someone, somewhere might be doing it, but that doesn't mean it should be featured in a handbook for playing a horror game.


Well your imagination is shot so yeah I assumed.
Though I am sorry I thought you meant Vampire the Masquerade. Not Requiem it was late and I got the NuWoD and OWoD settings mixed up.
And your example is in no way similar to having Animal or Anthro Morphs in the setting.

LatwPIAT wrote:
The space that would be spent on escapist fantasies like anthropomorphic animal morphs is better spent on things that maintain the mood and gravitas of the setting. Putting sleevable bio-luminescent tigers in the morph section puts the emphasis on and wastes space on something that doesn't add to the mood of the setting, and detracts from the gravitas. Given that you can, should you absolutely want to, puppet any smart animal, adding extra rules for a specific smart animal that has no real purpose is a waste of space, and a waste of space that doesn't even mesh well with the rest of the setting.

It has no place in the player's handbook, except as a single line note somewhere about how sleeving into smart tigers sometimes can be useful.

*Rolls Eyes*
So once again you have no legitimate justification to exclude said morph other then screaming loudly, "GRAVITAS!" as if it's a Mantra that will magically make you right.

LatwPIAT wrote:
Yes it is. The average person will fail the Alienation Test 85% of the time when sleeving into a Bastet, which will, on average, cause them 3 SV. This is more stressful than losing your best friend.

Watching a loved one die has a stress value of 1d10 + 2.
Losing a loved one is 1d10 ÷ 2 (rounding down)
You can get rid of Stress with Psychotherapy with a timeframe of of 1 hour per point of stress.
Alternatively they can just do natural healing. :/
So no it's not that big a deal.

LatwPIAT wrote:

...you are aware that ponies are a type of horse, right? And that in this case, the distinction is rather trivial?

When you say pony your referring to something like MLP. :/
SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
Smokeskin wrote:There will

Smokeskin wrote:
There will always be bigots. A lot of people had a hard time accepting black people and women once, these days it is alternative sexual preferences.

That they take their bias to the extreme that they assume that humanoid animals must be a fetish thing is just plain weird.

Anyways, their position is just so completely unrealistic that it is hardly worth replying to. Of course there are such morphs in EP, there's a market for it and it is tecnically no problem.


I know but jeeze. >.<
It's kind of ridiculous though and it's mildly infuriating. I mean I'm a Furry, I love animals, I read Le Roman De Renart, I love furry art and comics and projects and so on....But the level of attack furries get on various sites if insane....Not to mention unwarranted. :/
Hell I thought that phase was over....
LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
SummerHeart wrote:*Rolls Eyes

SummerHeart wrote:
*Rolls Eyes*
Give it a back mounted combat harness and slave a swivel mounted turret weapon to a PAN and have some fun. You can carry heavier weaponry on stable platform. Hell maybe add in some hip VLS mounted Seekers. Hell have the MUSE handle the targeting and point defense while the Bastet Ego gets in close to kick ass.
Or for more close in personal fun toxin laden claws and Eelware paws, artificial diamond teeth. Give it some Adrenal Boosters, Heavy Bioweave Armor and Medichines and your set.
Hell you could probably even give it specially modified armor.

Or you could forgo some of that and just give it a harness with a cybernetic arm or even better a Wrist-Mounted Tools thats linked to the Bastet access jack so the Morph can control it.

Just because your not imaginative enough to figure out a way to make these sort of Morphs work wonderfully in your game doesn't mean the rest of us can't.
Hell you could even give it some armor if you wanted, an enclosed helmet, modified spray armor (Giant Latex Kitty. :p) Smart Skin or maybe even light body armor. (Drone assisted suiting up may be needed.)

*raises eyebrow quizzically*

If you need to stick a ton of gear on a morph to make it useful for combat, then, by definition, it's not really very useful as a combat morph.

Once you give the Bastet a combat harness with a swivel-mounted weapon, hip-mounted Seeker launchers, toxin-laden claws and eelware, diamond teeth, adrenal boosters, heavy bioware armour, medichines, and modified armour... you might as well give an Exalt a combat harness with a swivel-mounted weapon, hip-mounted Seeker launchers, etc.

But the Exalt could already do that. It doesn't need the combat harness, because it already has arms and hands that can be used for holding and firing a weapon. If you need to give the Bastet special gear just to be able to match a non-combat morph, then the Bastet is not very suited as a combat morph.

SummerHeart wrote:
Losing a loved one is 1d10 ÷ 2 (rounding down)
You can get rid of Stress with Psychotherapy with a timeframe of of 1 hour per point of stress.
Alternatively they can just do natural healing. :/
So no it's not that big a deal.

So... losing a loved one is "not that big a deal"?

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

SummerHeart SummerHeart's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:

LatwPIAT wrote:

*raises eyebrow quizzically*

If you need to stick a ton of gear on a morph to make it useful for combat, then, by definition, it's not really very useful as a combat morph.

Once you give the Bastet a combat harness with a swivel-mounted weapon, hip-mounted Seeker launchers, toxin-laden claws and eelware, diamond teeth, adrenal boosters, heavy bioware armour, medichines, and modified armour... you might as well give an Exalt a combat harness with a swivel-mounted weapon, hip-mounted Seeker launchers, etc.

But the Exalt could already do that. It doesn't need the combat harness, because it already has arms and hands that can be used for holding and firing a weapon. If you need to give the Bastet special gear just to be able to match a non-combat morph, then the Bastet is not very suited as a combat morph.


You need to stick a lot of gear on any other pod or biomorph based Combat Morph to make it effective as well, making the Bastet combat effective is no different.
Using your line of thinking a Fury isn't really useful as a Combat Morph because you can't drop her naked into a combat zone. :/

And regardless the Bastet as is isn't optimized for being a Combat Morph. Baseline Stats the Bastet makes a good Bodyguard Morph. But for Combat as is everything else you need to give a Morph some equipment to work with to make it effective.

And regardless of that planting a combat harness with a turret mount makes sense because of the low center of gravity along with a four legged morph being a far more stable firing platform then a two legged morph.

And thats ignoring the fact that Bastets can manipulate objects with their paws already. So it is in fact feasible for them to be able to use basic firearms if they wished to.

LatwPIAT wrote:

So... losing a loved one is "not that big a deal"?
Rule wise? Yes.
The Stress Value for losing a friend is 1d10 divided by two.
Failing spectacularly at your Alienation Test is not nearly as mentally scarring as your saying it is and can be fixed either by Natural means of working things out.
Or by talking to a Psychotherapist for a few hours....Or just getting some Pyschosurgery done. :/

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
So I am honestly curious. If

So I am honestly curious. If you feel that morphs should only exist for a given purpose/tool use, can you explain to me the purpose of, say, the Octomorphs? Or the Neo-Avian? Because the only one I can see is 'acts as a vehicle for uplift play'. Which is exactly the role that the Bastet would be filling, only it would be 'acting as a vehicle for animal play'.

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