Rules and gear questions

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savaze savaze's picture
Rules and gear questions

1) I'm trying to find an answer to what Vacuum Sealing and Temperature Tolerance do when combined?! I ask this because Nova Crabs are equipped with both. I searched the forums and there were no real answers... Is there a table with possible environmental modifiers that I missed? When the two are combined is the effect magnified? What about the other temperature enhancements/traits?

I'm reaching, but here's what I've come up with:

*The baseline person can handle temperatures that range from 0 to 40 degrees C (it's actually 40.6 C, but for easier math...) before injuries develop, considering average Earth atmospheric conditions as the medium.
**Temperature Tolerance gives a range of -30 to 60 C; 2.25 times a greater range than the baseline, +75% on bottom, 100% middle, +50% on top.
**Temperature Tolerance Improved Cold allows a Morph to go to temperatures as low as -80 C; 3 times greater than the baseline, 200% on bottom, 100% middle, 0% on top.
**High-Temperature Operation allows Morphs to operate in temperatures as high as 1000 C; 25 times greater than the baseline, 0% on bottom, 100% middle, 2400% on top.
**Vacuum Sealing gives a range of -75 to 100 C; 4.375 times greater than the baseline, 187.5% on bottom, 100% middle, 150% on top.
***Extreme Heat Shielding allows operation in temperatures as high as 500 C; 12.5 times greater than the baseline, 0% on bottom, 100% middle, 1150% on top.

Meaning a Morph enhanced with all (not including EHS) would be able to handle temperatures 34.625 times greater than the baseline flat @ -245 to 1140 C; 462.5% on bottom, 400% middle, 2600% on top (whether they can move at temperatures lower than 250 C is another matter entirely). Maybe my math or conclusions are wonky, but I don't have a lot to go on...

2) I'm also trying to figure out if the technology of Enhanced Respiration and Respirocytes are compatible or do they overlap in some regard, becoming redundant. I've seen some bantering on how long people could hold their breath with Respirocytes and Oxygen Reserves floating around the forum, but I didn't find anything else regarding this question.

If they're all compatible here's my conclusions on how long you could hold your breath:

*The average person can hold their breath for 3 minutes and takes 15 breaths per minute, equaling 900 breaths/hour @rest (1/3 of that if active, excited, panicked, etc).
**Enhanced Respiration allows you to hold your breath 30 minutes @rest, which is ten times the length you can hold your breath.
**Oxygen Reserves give you 3 hours or comfortable breathing (@rest?), which equates 2700 breaths.
**Respirocytes allow you to hold your breath for 4 hours, which is 80 times the length you can hold your breath.

Meaning a character with all three enhancements can hold their breath for 4.5 hours and having 2700 breaths in reserve means that, theoretically, they have air for up to ~1.39 years (~16.6 months), if they only breath the air out of their Oxygen Reserve and don't sleep, lose consciousness, or contaminate their reserve air (or die, etc)...

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Re: Rules and gear questions

Vacuum sealing just lets your skin handle those temperatures, while temperature tolerance lets you breathe and eat within its range.

I rule that respirocytes replace red blood cells, so it isn't compatible with enh. respiration. Oxygen reserve is just that, extra oxygen, and its effect gets added. Multiplying by number of breaths makes no sense...

nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
Re: Rules and gear questions

I also think that any mod that increases one's tolerance for extreme temperatures will overlap, not stack, ie. you take the lowest and highest extremes listed, no recalculation.

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Rules and gear questions

savaze wrote:
1) I'm trying to find an answer to what Vacuum Sealing and Temperature Tolerance do when combined?! I ask this because Nova Crabs are equipped with both. I searched the forums and there were no real answers... Is there a table with possible environmental modifiers that I missed? When the two are combined is the effect magnified? What about the other temperature enhancements/traits?

I'm reaching, but here's what I've come up with:

*The baseline person can handle temperatures that range from 0 to 40 degrees C (it's actually 40.6 C, but for easier math...) before injuries develop, considering average Earth atmospheric conditions as the medium.
**Temperature Tolerance gives a range of -30 to 60 C; 2.25 times a greater range than the baseline, +75% on bottom, 100% middle, +50% on top.
**Temperature Tolerance Improved Cold allows a Morph to go to temperatures as low as -80 C; 3 times greater than the baseline, 200% on bottom, 100% middle, 0% on top.
**High-Temperature Operation allows Morphs to operate in temperatures as high as 1000 C; 25 times greater than the baseline, 0% on bottom, 100% middle, 2400% on top.
**Vacuum Sealing gives a range of -75 to 100 C; 4.375 times greater than the baseline, 187.5% on bottom, 100% middle, 150% on top.
***Extreme Heat Shielding allows operation in temperatures as high as 500 C; 12.5 times greater than the baseline, 0% on bottom, 100% middle, 1150% on top.

Meaning a Morph enhanced with all (not including EHS) would be able to handle temperatures 34.625 times greater than the baseline flat @ -245 to 1140 C; 462.5% on bottom, 400% middle, 2600% on top (whether they can move at temperatures lower than 250 C is another matter entirely). Maybe my math or conclusions are wonky, but I don't have a lot to go on...

Some of those implants aren't necessarily compatible. High temperature operation makes a morph capable of operating at extremely high temperatures, but incapable of operating at low ones (it cannot move without a high temperature environment). Your best choice would be extreme heat shielding, which would slow your morph down but grant you tolerance up to 500 C.

I also don't think it accurate to assume that these effects would be cumulative. If you have vacuum sealing then improve it with extreme heat shielding, you would improve your tolerance to heat to 500 C, not additively to what vacuum sealing has already granted.

savaze wrote:
2) I'm also trying to figure out if the technology of Enhanced Respiration and Respirocytes are compatible or do they overlap in some regard, becoming redundant. I've seen some bantering on how long people could hold their breath with Respirocytes and Oxygen Reserves floating around the forum, but I didn't find anything else regarding this question.

Again, while they likely are compatible, they are not necessarily cumulative in effect. Respirocytes replace your blood cells with more efficient nanotech substitutes. Enhanced respiration improves your lungs and blood cells. Since you no longer have blood cells, the improvement of them that comes with enhanced respiration is largely lost. However, the benefits of enhanced lungs (improved pressure tolerances) would stick with you. So essentially, having both would grant you the ability to survive in both high and low pressure environments from 0.2 to 5 atmospheres without the risk of dizziness or decompression sickness, as well as a 4-hour air supply within your blood stream (I'd likely rule 2 hours with strenuous activity). Adding the oxygen reserve would merely add another 3 hours, because all these implants largely just improve how your body stores oxygen, not how it uses oxygen.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

savaze savaze's picture
Re: Rules and gear questions

Thanks for all the responses folks! I realize some of my conclusions were to the extreme, but I wanted to see what people had to say on the matter.

@ smokeskin
I hadn’t considered what survival under the techs definitions meant. After rereading the descriptions I agree with you that TT allows eating, breathing, etc in temp range; with VS allowing higher temp endurance with breathing and nourishment handled in other ways.
I think that ER works with R, because ER has two parts 1) lung efficiency and 2) the blood’s oxygen-carrying capacity. R completely take over one part of ER, but the other is still valid, so it’s a matter of figuring to what extent.

@ Decivre
I agree that not all of these technologies would add together like I did, I did it more to provoke conversation and thought into the subject. As far as ER & R compatibility I agree with you mostly as I mentioned above to smokeskin. Lung efficiency is kind of vague, does that mean they enhanced the lobes, the diaphragm, the scalene, and other neck & shoulder muscles occasionally used in respiration? I don’t know. I suppose all of the above and including the trachea and bronchi to be able to handle 0.2-5 ATM, but that would also help how the body metabolizes oxygen (and also change what O2 mixtures the body needs at different ATMs, and also help prevent the ocular and nervous system damage that comes from dealing with prolonged exposure to those ATM ranges). As far as how OR effects both of those techs I’m not sure. If all three breathing technologies were combined the body’s metabolism of O2 would need to stay at roughly the same as a standard flat, meaning there could be some slowing of how many breaths we take per hour (at 1 ATM in and Earth normal ATM/temperature), but it wouldn’t be the same as holding our breath, nor would it necessarily mean that there would be some slowing because the nanites are controlling it - meaning they allow the sloppier use of oxygen or block the additional O2 until it’s all been used. I’m leaning more towards the OR lasting longer while breathing normally and lasting longer with conserving air by holding your breath. Maybe 2700 breaths are extreme, but I wouldn’t say it’s off (in 1 ATM). It would be more likely that you can only hold your breath for the maximum length once per three to five normal breaths with more breaths useable per shorter breath holding; or that the nanites can make that air last certain length longer due to how they control metabolism.

I’m leaning more towards some kind of simplified Law of Diminishing returns for compatible overlapping technologies. I’m not saying that someone who took Temperature Tolerance five times would have great weather adaptability, though I suppose that’s up to the GM, but that differing technologies that overlap in purpose would have some sort diminishing increase. Without getting into complicated math I propose a simplified formula (I know the mathematicians out there are bleeding at the eyes at that comment). We could say something like compatible overlapping technologies in the same category (i.e. cyberware, traits, etc) add a 20% increase of the lower bonus to the greater when combined (e.g. TT [-30 to 60 C] & TTIC [-80 C] would provide a temperature range of -86 to 60 C, TT is 30 under the baseline *0.2) and compatible overlapping technologies in differing categories add a 50% increase of the lower bonus to the greater when combined (e.g. TT [-30 to 60 C] & HTO [1000 C] would provide a temperature range of -30 to 1010 C - still not implying that they can operate in temps under 250 C, TT is 20 over the baseline *0.5); while technologies that are partially compatible add half the bonus when combined (e.g. ER [30 min] & R [4 hours] would provide allow holding of breath for 4.125 hours).

I'm just trying to get more insight into the tech...

EDIT:
I always have at least two players who either have better explanations on why something should work differently, and I've never been opposed to hearing them out and changing or compromising as necessary (at the appropriate time). So, that's the primary reason for these chain-of-thoughts...