Does the 2nd edition reduce then number of dice rolls in combat?

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Marvin Marvin's picture
Does the 2nd edition reduce then number of dice rolls in combat?

Thinking about buying the 2nd edition if the game system has been fixed. In the 1st edition game system the combat system did not work in my opinion. The setting as I understand it has basically remained the same, so the benefit of the 2nd edition is mostly a improved game system.

Does the 2nd edition game system drastically reduce the number of dice rolls to something comparable to other game systems, like 1 to 4 dice rolls to resolve one combat orientated character's actions in one combat turn.

The 1st edition did not work in my opinion because the number of rolls was so excessive as to render combat effectively unplayable.
For example to resolve one combat orientated character's actions over one combat turn.
Roll initiative
Max Speed 4 can have up to 4 actions during a turn. But lets assume they just have Speed 2. So 2 actions.
Each action they can make 2 attacks per burst fire weapon and can have one weapon in each hand/limb. A morph octopus has more 2 limbs, but lets assume the shooter is in a human morph giving them 4 attack rolls per action for a total of 8 attack rolls in the turn.
Each burst fire attack can attack 2 targets. The targets get to roll fray to dodge so 16 rolls to dodge over the turn.
Each attack that hits rolls damage. Lets assume only half the shots hit, so that is 8 damage rolls.
Each attack that causes damage may result in a wound or wounds triggering a roll to not be knocked down or pass out, lets assume half of hits cause wounds so that is another 4 rolls.
In total that is 37 rolls to resolve one combat orientated character's actions in one combat turn, and the worse case scenario is in excess of 100 rolls to resolve one character's actions in one combat turn.

BlckKnght BlckKnght's picture
It's a bit better

It's mostly the same system, but several parts are simplified to reduce the number of rolls by a little bit.

You only get to shoot once with a single complex action now, rather than shooting twice with each burst or semi-auto weapon. There are still ways that a burst or full automatic spray can hit more than one target, but it's no longer two bursts every time. And a lot of the rolls in your examples are situational: There often won't be two adjacent targets to spread your burst over, and the penalties for shooting with a second gun may not be worth it (since reloading requires a complex action, wasting ammo is fairly costly in the action economy).

There's also no longer a speed stat that automatically gives extra actions. Instead, you can spend Vigor pool points to get extra complex actions before the end of the turn. So a combat focused character may be able to take a total of four or five or so extra actions in the first four or five rounds of combat (one per turn), or less if they're spending lots of their pool points to flip their rolls, upgrade their successes to superior successes or downgrade critical failures to regular failures. But in a drawn out fight they'll run out of points and be just like everybody else after that. And you're limited to a small number of recharges to your pools, so if you have a lot of combat in one day, even a crack a combat character is going to eventually be stuck operating at normal speed even if there are gaps between the fights to catch their breath.

So these two things in combination mean that you're probably looking at half the number of rolls per turn for the first few rounds of combat (while the combat characters are using their pools for extra actions), and then a quarter the number after that. And often much less, since not all the situational rolls will apply.

ICU2 ICU2's picture
There are still:

There are still:
Attack roll
Fray roll (only if Attack failed)
Damage roll (only if Fray failed)
Effect roll (only if Fray failed, only for special effects like Blinding, Entangling, or Stun)

This is only a bit more rolls than in D&D where each action usually involves 1-2 rolls (attack/save plus possible damage), Each character can generate these at least once each turn, and many characters can pull a few extra actions here and there (but certainly not every turn and maybe not even every encounter).

Franwax Franwax's picture
Effect rolls

Effect rolls can also add up on a single attack. Getting a single wound will prompt a SOM check to stay upright; 2 wounds or more prompt a SOM check to stay awake - on top of any other effect the attack might cause.
This said, D&D from a certain level also scales up the dice rolls (extra attack + off-hand attack; action surged or Haste and other stuff --> you can easily climb up to 6 to 8 rolls per round, counting damage rolls). So I wouldn't say it's that different in the end... a bit more on EP side, but not as bad as 1st ed.

ICU2 ICU2's picture
Franwax wrote:Effect rolls

Franwax wrote:
Effect rolls can also add up on a single attack. Getting a single wound will prompt a SOM check to stay upright; 2 wounds or more prompt a SOM check to stay awake - on top of any other effect the attack might cause.
This said, D&D from a certain level also scales up the dice rolls (extra attack + off-hand attack; action surged or Haste and other stuff --> you can easily climb up to 6 to 8 rolls per round, counting damage rolls). So I wouldn't say it's that different in the end... a bit more on EP side, but not as bad as 1st ed.

And then there is the fact that in EP2e, it is possible to take out many enemies with a few good attacks (if you have the right weapons and use the right attack options--autofire for boosted damage is a must against armored targets). In D&D5e, all but the lowliest creatures can often stand up to multiple attacks as their hit points are whittled down.
Franwax Franwax's picture
Oh yeah, fights in EP would

Oh yeah, fights in EP would be much faster if you know what you're doing (abusing full auto concentrated fire, or just having a plasma rifle on hand)

ICU2 ICU2's picture
Franwax wrote:Oh yeah, fights

Franwax wrote:
Oh yeah, fights in EP would be much faster if you know what you're doing (abusing full auto concentrated fire, or just having a plasma rifle on hand)

Abusing...? Only a fool conserves ammo in a post-scarcity battlefield!
Dany40 Dany40's picture
This conversation leads me to

This conversation leads me to ask a question :
You can use an unlimited number of Vigor Pool points to have many extras actions in the same round ???

Eclipse Phase french fan and Gamemaster until 2014

Dany40 Dany40's picture
I found the answer p33 ... No

I found the answer p33 ... No more than 2 extra actions by round. :)

Eclipse Phase french fan and Gamemaster until 2014

Fishmonger Fishmonger's picture
Bang bang bang

ICU2 wrote:
Abusing...? Only a fool conserves ammo in a post-scarcity battlefield!
Agreed! Our combat orangutan has a rail assault rifle as his standard weapon, giving him nine rounds of full-auto firing before having to reload. Nine rounds is longer than most combats, so, yeah, it's a lot of rounds in the air all the time.