Infomorph dumbness

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babayaga babayaga's picture
Infomorph dumbness

I am somewhat unhappy about the fact that infomorphs get no aptitude bonuses whatsoever - surely if resleeving into a splicer can give you +5 COG or +5 REF, so can resleeving as an infomorph into decent hardware?

One interesting solution would be to say something along the lines that "standard" infomorphs run on the most basic hardware capable of hosting them, and that there are many (expensive) hardware modifications that allow an infomorph bonuses of up to +10 to aptitudes such as COG or REF.

root root's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

root@Infomorph dumbness

The reason that Infomorphs get no Aptitude bonuses is because the Infomorph is the naked construct of a transhuman. To model what you are wanting to do is the same as sleeving into a synthetic morph that happens to look like a computer terminal. If you choose to sleeve into a synthmorph, you purchase a physical interface with the world, but pay by being limited on that morph's Aptitude Maximum.

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Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

Based on that however, it might be possible to run a "mock" splicer or menton brain emulator on an informorph's basic information pattern and boost it that way. Kinda like an Infomorph+ or a Menton- the physicality. But that that point you are toeing the line playing around in AGI/seed AGI territory so I'd have people in the outer reaches like on Glitch playing around with such concepts.

Gamewise it would probably be possible to play that by just using a background like infolife and buying off the "Real World Naivete" with Cp. You could also go with Ego based enhancements like Exceptional Aptitude, Eidetic memory, and a host of other intellect enhancements that would make you smarter in a "de facto" sort of way.

GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

What do you want to boost? They already have an Aptitude Maximum of 40, they don't need a bonus, from a metagaming point of view, but just an ego thats BAM enough to use this maximum.

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

Rhyx wrote:
Based on that however, it might be possible to run a "mock" splicer or menton brain emulator on an informorph's basic information pattern and boost it that way. Kinda like an Infomorph+ or a Menton- the physicality. But that that point you are toeing the line playing around in AGI/seed AGI territory so I'd have people in the outer reaches like on Glitch playing around with such concepts.

Gamewise it would probably be possible to play that by just using a background like infolife and buying off the "Real World Naivete" with Cp. You could also go with Ego based enhancements like Exceptional Aptitude, Eidetic memory, and a host of other intellect enhancements that would make you smarter in a "de facto" sort of way.

It is possible to run "mock" emulations of other morph types... they are known as simulmorphs and generally exist within the confines of a simulspace.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

babayaga babayaga's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

Greybrother: it's true that infomorphs have an aptitude limit of 40, but one thing is to have a high aptitude limit, another is to have a high aptitude. Sleeved on a menton, someone with COG 15 will have COG 25, and someone with COG 20 will have COG 30. As an infomorph, you are consistently 10 points of COG short (that's 100CP / 100 Rez!) until you break the COG 30 barrier.

Decivre: EP corebook p.262 says to "treat simulmorphs as basic infomorphs for all rules purposes" which I take to mean they do not get any bonuses.

root: I think I see your point - which I guess is fairly aligned to mine: as a "basic" inphomorph one gets no specialized hardware/wetware to boost one's abilities. If I understand correctly, you suggest assuming that a specialized hardware for infomorphs should essentially be treated as, say, a Menton minus the physicality. This is tricky for two reasons, though. First, it's not clear how much "discount" you should get from not having the physical capabilities of a physical morph. Second, it should really be possible to *augment* an infomorph by adding extra hardware, so that it retains its advantages of 40 aptitude limit and speed 3, but also gets a boost to, say, COG equivalent to that given by a Menton. I see no obvious way to do so within the current rules without creating new, ad-hoc morphs. Perhaps, since both a flat and an infomorph cost 0 CP, one could *add* to an infomorph the same bonuses as a Menton adds to a flat for the same cost of a Menton?

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

How about this,

InfoMorph+
Enhancements: Mnemonic Augmentation
Aptitude Maximum: 40
Speed Modifier: +2
Advantages: +5 to two Aptitudes of the players choice *SPECIAL*
Disadvantages: No physical form
CP Cost: 15
Credit Cost: High

*Due to the complex nature of this particular InfoMorphs brain patterns, it only recieves its Aptitude bonuses while running on either a personal computer with a quality modifier of +20 or higher, or a server of any quality. When not run on such a device the InfoMorph is incapable of making use of these Aptitude bonuses and instead runs as the equivelent of a standard InfoMorph. For rules on Mesh Gear quality ratings please see page 247 EP CORE.

-

icekatze icekatze's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

hi hi

Given the general mistrust of AI, I wouldn't be surprised if most computer hardware is actually less powerful than the hardware in various morphs, since most intelligences might want to keep the best for themselves. I would think that infomorph characters might actually get penalties to their aptitudes depending on the quality of the hardware. Also considering the fears about seed AI, any infomorph that starts using excessive processor power on a server might start raising red flags with security.

Admittedly, I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but for a house rule, I might say that a infomorph would get an aptitude bonus or penalty equal to the number on the mesh gear modifier's table, but specific to the piece of hardware the infomorph is currently in. So unless the hardware was custom built, the penalties/bonuses gained would sort of be the luck of the draw.

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

babayaga wrote:
Decivre: EP corebook p.262 says to "treat simulmorphs as basic infomorphs for all rules purposes" which I take to mean they do not get any bonuses.

Yes and no. While your stats are set to baseline, and unaffected by your morph or implants while you are in the confines of a virtual world, it also states that "Depending on the role a simulspace is intended to play in the story, the gamemaster may want to invent 'physical stats' for the simulmorph bodies, especially if the characters are likely to spend a lot of time in the simulation. These statistics can literally be made up—it is a virtual reality after all, and anything goes. Alternately, the gamemaster can simply wing it and invent any necessary statistics on the fly as the need for them comes up." Simulmorphs grant whatever virtual bonuses to physical tasks that the GM deems fit according to the simulspace. If simulmorphs in you playfield are capable of lifting mountains, then it really doesn't matter if your somatic capabilities are low in the outside world.

babayaga wrote:
root: I think I see your point - which I guess is fairly aligned to mine: as a "basic" inphomorph one gets no specialized hardware/wetware to boost one's abilities. If I understand correctly, you suggest assuming that a specialized hardware for infomorphs should essentially be treated as, say, a Menton minus the physicality. This is tricky for two reasons, though. First, it's not clear how much "discount" you should get from not having the physical capabilities of a physical morph. Second, it should really be possible to *augment* an infomorph by adding extra hardware, so that it retains its advantages of 40 aptitude limit and speed 3, but also gets a boost to, say, COG equivalent to that given by a Menton. I see no obvious way to do so within the current rules without creating new, ad-hoc morphs. Perhaps, since both a flat and an infomorph cost 0 CP, one could *add* to an infomorph the same bonuses as a Menton adds to a flat for the same cost of a Menton?

I see nothing that implies that it is impossible to get cyberware enhancements for your infomorph system, in order to boost your stats. Even if it is an immobile body, the computer system running your infomorph is still a body, and theoretically one that can be modified. The only unfortunate thing is the fact that there doesn't seem to be many cyberware implants that could actually help infomorphs, none of which enhance mental aptitudes, considering that they do not have a physical body... mental augmentations (except for multiple personalities), emotional dampers, reflex boosters, mental speed, oracles and skillware may be the only ones that can actually help an infomorph.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

root root's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

root@Infomorph dumbness


Decivre wrote:
I see nothing that implies that it is impossible to get cyberware enhancements for your infomorph system, in order to boost your stats. Even if it is an immobile body, the computer system running your infomorph is still a body, and theoretically one that can be modified. The only unfortunate thing is the fact that there doesn't seem to be many cyberware implants that could actually help infomorphs, none of which enhance mental aptitudes, considering that they do not have a physical body... mental augmentations (except for multiple personalities), emotional dampers, reflex boosters, mental speed, oracles and skillware may be the only ones that can actually help an infomorph.

Your infomorph system can be modified, yes; That is represented by being inside of a synthmorph. In a sense, the Infomorph is your baseline character. Everything else that they wear are just hats. Because you are always meshed you may never actually use those baseline stats, but that's what they are.

As for useful implants for an infomorph? There's this:

Cluster Seed [17 CP]

  • Space Roach("Gregory") [Low]
  • Cyberbrain [Moderate]
  • Ghostrider Module [Low]
  • Ghostrider Module [Low]
  • Ghostrider Module [Low]
  • Specialized Hive (Proteans(Cornucopia Machine)) [High]
  • Specialized Hive (Proteans(Generalized Hive)) [High]
  • Specialized Hive (Proteans(Healing Vat)) [High]

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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

root wrote:
root@Infomorph dumbness

Your infomorph system can be modified, yes; That is represented by being inside of a synthmorph. In a sense, the Infomorph is your baseline character. Everything else that they wear are just hats. Because you are always meshed you may never actually use those baseline stats, but that's what they are.

As for useful implants for an infomorph? There's this:

Cluster Seed [17 CP]

  • Space Roach("Gregory") [Low]
  • Cyberbrain [Moderate]
  • Ghostrider Module [Low]
  • Ghostrider Module [Low]
  • Ghostrider Module [Low]
  • Specialized Hive (Proteans(Cornucopia Machine)) [High]
  • Specialized Hive (Proteans(Generalized Hive)) [High]
  • Specialized Hive (Proteans(Healing Vat)) [High]

Most of those aren't really implants, per se. Plus, I wasn't really talking about modifying synthmorphs, but rather modifying the brain emulator that runs an infomorph that still doesn't have a body. For instance, wired reflexes is the replacement of the central nervous system with superconductor material to make the system run more efficiently and make you move faster. It should be similarly possible to modify the processor that an infomorph runs on so that the infomorph runs faster, granting him an extra pass on the mesh and an implant bonus to REF. All without being in a synthmorph body.

As for your listed goods, a ghostrider module might as well be a separate brain emulator, since the primary function of a ghostrider module is to be able to carry multiple minds on a single mobile body. That doesn't really assist an infomorph in any way, outside of implanting it on someone else and riding them. A cyberbrain is also useless, because it is much more expensive than an ecto, they both can run an ego, and the only functional advantage to the cyberbrain is the ability to run a physical morph. The ones I listed were the only ones that grant actual internal bonuses to an infomorph as implants, rather than equipment and other things that might be useful to an infomorph.

Externally, I can picture a multitude of things being useful to infomorphs... any number of AI- or fork-driven synthmorphs, pods or bots to act as physical servants; any amount of software, ectos, and other mesh-based goodies; a guardian nanoswarm to protect them from the potentially harmful effects of nanoswarms nearby; and farcasters for travel purposes.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

root root's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

root@Infomorph dumbness


Decivre wrote:
root wrote:
root@Infomorph dumbness

Your infomorph system can be modified, yes; That is represented by being inside of a synthmorph. In a sense, the Infomorph is your baseline character. Everything else that they wear are just hats. Because you are always meshed you may never actually use those baseline stats, but that's what they are.

As for useful implants for an infomorph? There's this:

Cluster Seed [17 CP]

  • Space Roach("Gregory") [Low]
  • Cyberbrain [Moderate]
  • Ghostrider Module [Low]
  • Ghostrider Module [Low]
  • Ghostrider Module [Low]
  • Specialized Hive (Proteans(Cornucopia Machine)) [High]
  • Specialized Hive (Proteans(Generalized Hive)) [High]
  • Specialized Hive (Proteans(Healing Vat)) [High]

Most of those aren't really implants, per se. Plus, I wasn't really talking about modifying synthmorphs, but rather modifying the brain emulator that runs an infomorph that still doesn't have a body. For instance, wired reflexes is the replacement of the central nervous system with superconductor material to make the system run more efficiently and make you move faster. It should be similarly possible to modify the processor that an infomorph runs on so that the infomorph runs faster, granting him an extra pass on the mesh and an implant bonus to REF. All without being in a synthmorph body.

As for your listed goods, a ghostrider module might as well be a separate brain emulator, since the primary function of a ghostrider module is to be able to carry multiple minds on a single mobile body. That doesn't really assist an infomorph in any way, outside of implanting it on someone else and riding them. A cyberbrain is also useless, because it is much more expensive than an ecto, they both can run an ego, and the only functional advantage to the cyberbrain is the ability to run a physical morph. The ones I listed were the only ones that grant actual internal bonuses to an infomorph as implants, rather than equipment and other things that might be useful to an infomorph.

Externally, I can picture a multitude of things being useful to infomorphs... any number of AI- or fork-driven synthmorphs, pods or bots to act as physical servants; any amount of software, ectos, and other mesh-based goodies; a guardian nanoswarm to protect them from the potentially harmful effects of nanoswarms nearby; and farcasters for travel purposes.

I guess I should explain what's behind those implants. The cyberbrain I grabbed because I couldn't find a price for any computer system larger than an ecto. The ghostrider modules are for forks, such that any task the Infomorph turns to they gain a +30 bonus from teamwork. The cyberbrain can be plugged directly into another cyberbrain, so they can be run as a single unit with more forks. The specialized hives allow this unit to replicate itself up to the carrying capacity of the local environment. The space roach is because of the Kafka story, and carries all of this as implants, spreading Brain Chain infection everywhere it wanders. Because if you see one, there are ten in the walls.

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Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

See Root, that was entirely too self referential and I wouldn't have gotten half of that if it hadn't been explained. I mean for crying out loud, you even have Franz Kafka references in there...:P

Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Infomorph dumbness

root wrote:
I guess I should explain what's behind those implants. The cyberbrain I grabbed because I couldn't find a price for any computer system larger than an ecto. The ghostrider modules are for forks, such that any task the Infomorph turns to they gain a +30 bonus from teamwork. The cyberbrain can be plugged directly into another cyberbrain, so they can be run as a single unit with more forks. The specialized hives allow this unit to replicate itself up to the carrying capacity of the local environment. The space roach is because of the Kafka story, and carries all of this as implants, spreading Brain Chain infection everywhere it wanders. Because if you see one, there are ten in the walls.

Nice. I had a similar theory, but for a synthmorph rather than an infomorph. It goes as follows:

BORG
Flexbot w/ Weapon Mount w/ Buzzer [Protean Ammo (Flexbot w/ Weapon Mount w/ Buzzer)]
Hilarity ensues.

Personally, I think it would be simultaneously easier and simpler to just have a fabber that creates ectos, fiberoptic cable to connect the ectos, and more fabbers. You could produce an entire network of ectos, each containing forks, which could work as a massive hacking team. Software could be self-programmed (perhaps by a specific group of forks tasked with creating up-to-date software for the rest of the forks, who do the hacking) and copies can be distributed to all other forks in the network. As ectos take up little space, the entire network could probably be carried by another member of the team, or by a servant bot. For maximum efficiency (through reduced speed of production of more ectos), each ecto could be enhanced with skinlink technology, so that a network can be produced simply by placing them together, like a deck of cards (ectos can look like almost anything, anyways). Would even be hilarious with your concept, since they might think that the hacker is in the walls, only to find out that he's the wallpaper... and the desk... and the floors... and the whole damn building.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.