Transhuman General Discussion

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CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Transhuman General Discussion

The PDF for Transhuman is almost on us. The twitter feeds are abuzz, the kickstarter had a message saying that 'backers will be getting access first. Backers should either already have access, or very soon have it. General release will be on the 7th.

As has become tradition, a new supplement means a new discussion thread. We had a playtest this time around, so we have probably gone over quite a bit already. What are your thoughts on the new rules? Anything that really jumps out at you? Anything that makes you think “that is really cool”?

On the other side of things, anything that you don't like? Anything that you don't think should have been included?

Also feel free to post links to reviews, or first thought threads on other forums.

This thread isn't for any errata that you find. Rather, you should post that in the errata thread, found http://eclipsephase.com/transhuman-errata-thread

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DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Well, I've been poking around

Well, I've been poking around the file randomly. This is what I've looked at in the first time looking through. By the way, I'm trying to skip over things I've read lots already during the playtest. I may end up focusing on issues that I had a problem with during the playtest and I'm not sure if they were fixed.

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I started out looking at the back of the book, then moving to the front.

I've read the back to see if there was a backer list. My name (DivineWrath) isn't on there, though I'm not sure if the list is supposed to be a kickstarter backer list.

For sample characters (like the kind found in the core rulebook, starting on p. 154), we have a Argonaut Xenolinguist who is sleeved in a scurrier morph (I like the image of the morph), while latter we find a Scum Barge Chemist who appears to be sleeved in a female neopig with 6 tits (really? Do we have to go there?). The Venusian Gargoyle morph has a nice image, as does the Flexbot Traceur.

There was a section about upgrading morphs, so I read that. It provided some information, and even went over DIY morph modding. It recommended some skills to use depending on method used, morph type, morph subtype, and even offers time frames and modifiers.

----

Once I got to the beginning of the morph chapter, I decided to go through the book in proper order, starting with page 1.

I skipped over the alternate character creation chapters since those don't interest me at the moment. There were 2 such chapters.

----

Next chapter is character options.

Traits:
-Some of the new traits include "Gold Star" which is kind of the opposite of "Black Mark". You did something really important for that faction and you forever get a bonus when dealing with them. Not compatible with the "Black Mark" trait.
-The "Hardened" trait does mention that you could get it for free due to repeated exposure to stressful events after character creation, but I don't think its enough. It should probably mention that you are paying CP for the privilege of being hardened before character creation.
-There is the "Morph Fever Resistance" trait which makes it possible for Asyncs to handle being in morphs that are not fully organic without the risk of going nuts in the long run. No mention of them using power though.
-The name for "Low Gravity Adaptation" still annoys me...

Further down that chapter is rules like speed and moxie, but that was covered in the playtest (and I'm not interested in the moment). There is alternate motivations, but I think that was also covered in the playtest. There are rules for life style, making money, working for rep. Also covered in the playtest.

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Next chapter is playing characters.

The chapter cover, covers topics like "General Advice", "General Advice" (duplicate typo?), "Playing with AGIs and Infomorphs" (such as origin stories or how infomorphs work), "Playing Asyncs", "Playing Uplifts", "Forks". I want to read more of this chapter now since a lot of it looks very new, but I'm busy right now and have little time left for review. Some of the sub topics is post-scarcity characters and surviving combat... There looks like there some space set aside for playing a Firewall character (like what skills you might want, or tactics to use)... Some hacking... Some talk about using knowledge skills... Err... too much to list in the time that I have and I'm still on general advice (and skipping some of it)...

Ok, the AGI and informorph rules seem to cover a lot of running on servers, Eidolons, etc which was covered in the playtest. I'll read it later since I read lots of it during the playtest.

The Async section seems to go even so far as to describe the virus as something that is still around and is partially aware of the host. The section talks about your relationship with the virus. The section also has new powers.

There is forking which I skip due to time constraints.

Indentureship which I will also skip.

Maximizing your Muse. I don't want to skip it, but I don't have the time right now.

Skipping more things.

Nanofabrication seems to have more stuff written, but I don't have time to check.

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There is other stuff, but I've been skipping it. I've mentioned that I'm skipping character creations chapters didn't I? I don't have much time to proof read this post right now.

Also some of the artwork is good. I like the Neopigs body guards, and what appears to be a Mimic morph revealing its true nature as the doors close behind someone leaving. I've mentioned other artwork I like, but I also like some others I'm not mentioning here. There is also some that I didn't like, but I don't have time to discuss right now.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I remembered that there were

I remembered that there were rules for morph creation, so I made time to read the morph creation rules. They don't seem to have improved much since they were last mentioned in the playtests. I hate to say it, but enough seems to be left desired that it might be worth considering making better fan made rules. Though I might be criticizing it too much.

I'll worry about this later.

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
:D [big Grin!]

:D [big Grin!]
I am happier than a puppy with two peckers! This Is a Beautiful Book! You guys have outdone yourselves on the art, layout and writing.

I am also Very dissapointed! Because I only, just now, thought of all the names I *might* have had credited in the back of the book. [slamming head on desk repeatedly]
This is just friken killin me! I could have put; Bart Simpson, Megatron, Skeletor, Ookla The Mok!, Pikachu, Lion O, Panthro, Tygra, Chitara (Yum), Brok Samson Barrak Obama or any other government assclown, Boba Fett, Admiral Ackbar... Oh well.

This may be for the Eratta thread but I noticed my credit is spelled wrong. The correct spelling of OneTrikPony is actually; L E O N K A S S
If you could fix that in the printed version I'd really appreciate it. :)

All kidding aside, I'm ecstatic about the new book and I'd be more disturbed if the 'pig' only had two tits.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Octomorph Octomorph's picture
First glance

Have only had a look at the alternate character creation rules so far and I really like what I see. The packages look good and the lifepath generation is the thing for me - looks very good. Also like the new backgrounds a lot.

Will post more impressions as I get a chance, but I'd have to say you guys have done a really nice job. I'm really looking forward to the software package as well!

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
To my regret, I didn't have

To my regret, I didn't have enough time to do a thorough proof read my previous post. Had I more time to read over what I was posting, I might have deleted the part involving the neopig tits. I try to have more discretion when it comes to things that I... err... well... lets go with "things I don't approve of" or "things that I might react to" (such is an advantage of internet forums as opposed to real time communication, you can take time to fix your mistakes before posting). Someone having more than 2 breasts seems (to me) like immature humor sort of things and I ended up reacting to it. Thinking about it some more, technically a multitude of animals have multiple tits. Reducing that number to 2 by uplifting might be complex and might lead to more commotion by the Mercurials when they complain about applying yet another set of human norms and expectations to another creature.

Now that someone has commented about it, its kinda late to delete it (it would look weird if I did).

Lorsa Lorsa's picture
DivineWrath motivation:

DivineWrath motivation:

-Morphological freedom

?

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DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
More like:

More like:

DivineWrath
+Intolerant Christian Values
-Intolerant Christian Values

The contradiction does hurt some days. I want to stop what I perceive as wrongs in the world (and let the whole world know that its wrong), but I also recognize that I may end up being too excessive in that regard or that I might be wrong. I try to control what I say as it might be wrong or offensive. I kinda joke that I can be like an intolerant Christian, hence the reference. Anything that is too far outside of things I'm used to or have given a great deal of thought about might get my impulses running... which is why probably I shouldn't have Scum as neighbors.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Anyways, I've read the

Anyways, I've read the section on Muses. It covered some play tips for muses, such as instead of forcing the GM to role play another set of NPCs (the muses for the PCs), have the players play the other characters muses. It also covered situations where a person might be taking such bad care of their lives that the muse acts against the character to protect the character's well being, and that it might not care as much about existential threats to transhumanity as it cares about the well being of its owner.

Nanofabrication has more material added to it. It has a Firewall agent that tries to explain the ins and outs of smuggling and why nanofabrication is your friend. It also has small part given to Cognite talking to children about their new best friends, their muse.

Clunker Clunker's picture
I'm finding the Flexbot and

I'm finding the Flexbot and AGI sections *fascinating*.

Probably due to the fact I'm going to be playing an AGI Engineer,
with the Trait "Right At Home: Flexbots".

Looks like I'm going to have to do some major rejiggering due to how
DUR and such now seems to work, but all the added info and examples
will make it worth-while!

nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
Clunker wrote:I'm finding the

Clunker wrote:
I'm finding the Flexbot and AGI sections *fascinating*.

Probably due to the fact I'm going to be playing an AGI Engineer,
with the Trait "Right At Home: Flexbots".

Looks like I'm going to have to do some major rejiggering due to how
DUR and such now seems to work, but all the added info and examples
will make it worth-while!

How does the "Right at Home" trait work with a morph that is multiple, shape changing modules that can be anything from a scout to a habitat? The morphological diversity of every permutation and arrangement of flex-bot modules rivals the diversity of all other synthmorphs taken as a whole. I guess it could work for all flexbot modules (limiting it to one specific configuration or module would be ridiculous), but it is a question to ask. A GM might limit how it effects re-configuring integration/alienation checks, having it only work for the initial resleeving, or force you to take it for one module and let you use it only if you keep your brain there.

It just seems like "flex-bot" isn't really "one type of morph" anymore (when compared to other options for "Right at Home").

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Yeah, I have similar problems

Yeah, I have similar problems with the "Right at Home" trait as well. There multiple types of Flexbots now, each are now effectively their own morphs with their own aptitude bonuses and stuff that makes them as unique. Possibly as unique as any other morph. Then you can combine multiple types of Flexbot morphs together into a single unit...

Still, I'm not sure if a single type of Flexbot should be disqualified from benefiting from the "Right at Home" trait. In many ways, the "Right at Home" trait is supposed to show that a character is very comfortable with a specific type of morph. There should be some perks for selecting a rare morph instead of a common morph. I'm fairly sure that you would be likely to get more mileage by selecting a common yet weak morph like the Case, over something rare yet powerful like a Reaper.

What I do have issue with is how there are more and more types of morphs becoming available. Taking the "Right at Home" trait is becoming less and less valuable. I know that more variety and more specialized morphs is supposed to make the game more interesting, but it weakens the trait. You are less likely to find the specific morph you are comfortable with, but are more likely to find a morph sufficiently different to qualify as some other than what the "Right at Home" applies to. Also, I don't even know if morph variants count as being sufficiently different or not.

The only way to ensure that you get a morph you want is to favor synthmorphs and carry blueprints for those morphs and hope that the local nanofabs will accept them. An alternative is to favor infomorphs. I don't think there is any place that doesn't disallow generic informorphs.

----

Something that could be done is to make a bunch of new traits. Some of them negate the penalties of sleeving into exotic and extreme morphs, making them no more weird for you than sleeving into a splicer.

I need to give it some thought though. I don't know the exact variables that need to be accounted for at the moment...

nick012000 nick012000's picture
Ick, that neo-pig. It looks

Ick, that neo-pig. It looks like they stuck a pig head on the body of a six-breasted human. I'm willing to write it off as aftermarket modifications (she is a Scum, after all), but seriously, looking like pig-headed humans is a problem most of the neo-pig artwork's been having.

EDIT: LOLwut.

Quote:
Firewall agents who are expecting to fight exsurgents should also take some comfurt or orbital hash, as they are the only means of mitigating Trauma without the need for psychotherapy.

Because fighting monsters while high on space-marijuana is a brilliant idea!

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Decivre Decivre's picture
nick012000 wrote:Ick, that

nick012000 wrote:
Ick, that neo-pig. It looks like they stuck a pig head on the body of a six-breasted human. I'm willing to write it off as aftermarket modifications (she is a Scum, after all), but seriously, looking like pig-headed humans is a problem most of the neo-pig artwork's been having.

I was fairly displeased with this picture as well. Maybe if they dramatically shrink the size of the breasts, it might make some sense. But I find it hard to believe that a neo-pig would be given large human-like breasts as part of the uplift process (I can understand all other humanoid aspects of the uplift process... they have to be upright walkers).

It reminds me of dragonborn boobs. Off-putting.

nick012000 wrote:
Because fighting monsters while high on space-marijuana is a brilliant idea!

It might be good to have on you, just in case your mind can't handle the stress. I'd rather have a high-yet-stable agent than a neurotic mess.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

Armoured Armoured's picture
Aww. The sociopathic

Aww. The sociopathic uplifted felines didn't make it int the book... Oh well, I'm totally lifting the beta material on it for my games.

Otherwise, I like what I've seen flipping though it, though I haven't done an in-depth cover-to-cover read yet. The "playing characters" chapter is particularly good, for both the crunch and fluff of building a useful character in the game.

Buio Buio's picture
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Armoured wrote:
Aww. The sociopathic uplifted felines didn't make it int the book... Oh well, I'm totally lifting the beta material on it for my games.

Oh, I didn't notice that at first. Too bad, I liked them as sociopaths. Hope to see the material in another book.
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Decivre wrote:

Decivre wrote:

I was fairly displeased with this picture as well. Maybe if they dramatically shrink the size of the breasts, it might make some sense. But I find it hard to believe that a neo-pig would be given large human-like breasts as part of the uplift process (I can understand all other humanoid aspects of the uplift process... they have to be upright walkers).

It reminds me of dragonborn boobs. Off-putting.

It is, after the T&A piece on page 82, my least favourite picture in the book. It doesn't make sense for a Neo-Pig to have swollen breasts, unless they have very recently been nursing. Even then the size is an issue. It just looks ridiculous. Which is a shame, because most of the other pieces are fantastic, especially the Human Impersonator, which is very feminine without being overly 'sexy'.

To be honest the Neo-Pigs in general aren't portrayed in a way that I find appealing. Most of them are just bulky humans with pig heads. Though the Uplift Mafia on page 22 is kind of cool. I think it might just be that the six-breasted version has soured me on them in general.

The space corgi on page 143 is amazing, and the portable server on page 114 is literally the perfect image for one of my characters.

Two pieces in this particular book disagree with me. Which isn't that bad. (I actually didn't mind Dragonborn having breasts, however my particular game had them nursing after hatching, and in clutches of one or two, so it kind of made sense for me.)

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LogosInvictus LogosInvictus's picture
Personally, I think the best

Personally, I think the best part was the addition of more qualities representing divergent psychologies for Uplifts, AGIs and people exposed to very specific aspects of the transhuman condition. One of my players is really interested in exploring the effects of transhumanism on human psychology, as well as playing characters with non-human psychologies and instincts, so giving those kinds of questions some mechanical weight is really exciting for my group.

Edit: With regard to the neo-pig. It's worth noting that the character the picture references is Scum. It's entirely possible that she intentionally modified/engineered her morph to look like that for personal aesthetic reasons (or just as a freakout). It doesn't necessarily justify the picture, of course, but that could provide a reasonable explanation.

"I've never understood that. Why does the universe give us puzzles with no answers?"
"Pay back, maybe?"

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
How come there isn't an

How come there isn't an uproar about the Scurrier pod on page 225 only having four limbs? This is an outrage. The alien flying squirrel community demands reparations. I mean really, who do you think you are dealing with? The uplifted parrot community? We don't screw around with our limb count over here!

You know I might be reaching when my trouble with a particular image is that it doesn't have enough limbs attached. Though to be fair, the Scurrier that appears in Gatecrashing also seems to be lacking a pair of limbs.

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Buio Buio's picture
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CodeBreaker wrote:
To be honest the Neo-Pigs in general aren't portrayed in a way that I find appealing. Most of them are just bulky humans with pig heads. Though the Uplift Mafia on page 22 is kind of cool. I think it might just be that the six-breasted version has soured me on them in general.

I think the Neo-pig on page 121 in Panopticon looks great. Slightly sad or tired, great emotion in that picture and a really nice suit too.

One of my players is a octomorph. Not strange, considering they have several really great illustrations making players want to play one.
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The Zone Stalker on page 239 has body armor with "Immunogenic Coating". In the rule book it's called "Immunogenic System", both in the gear chapter and on the Titanian Explorer sample character. Sunward sample character Mobile Scientist has "Armored clothing (with Immunogenic)". Not that important maybe, but I noticed it by a coincidence anyway.

branford branford's picture
I particularly liked the Muse

I particularly liked the Muse section. It added an element of depth to an essential component of the game setting.

More importantly, what's a horror infused trans-humanist setting RPG without pictures of six-breasted neo-pigs. I only question why the art wasn't included in the core. :) It does, however, continue the thematic direction represented so exquisitely by Momo Von Satan and the Cock.

Well played.

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:

It is, after the T&A piece on page 82, my least favourite picture in the book. It doesn't make sense for a Neo-Pig to have swollen breasts, unless they have very recently been nursing. Even then the size is an issue. It just looks ridiculous.
[/quoter]

I did an image search for "pig sow" and don't see why the picture of the neopig is a problem. The size doesn't look unrealistic, and humans as a species have unusually large breasts when not breastfeeding, so even if she didn't have babies that from humans might have carried over to neopigs. The male attraction for big breasts could also have carried over to neopigs, and she had them augmented because she wanted to look good.

I think it looks ridiculous too, but obviously her face is more of a problem, with me not being into pigs. If you want to imagine something really ridiculously looking, what if she was actually dressed to impress, in heels, skirt, wearing make up.

CodeBreaker wrote:

Which is a shame, because most of the other pieces are fantastic, especially the Human Impersonator, which is very feminine without being overly 'sexy'.
[/quoter]

You really see it that way? I see it as a conservative and very anonymous style. This is EP. People buy flawless bodies, have access to cheap, fast, painless and perfect body modification, and can get any clothing they want fabbed, if their clothing isn't smart and able to look like whatever it is told to look like. She's not the long-limbed, slim yet curvy thing with great hair in a cute dress than anyone trying to look very feminine but not overly sexy would pick.

Look at Hollywood movie stars and models in commercials for fashion and make up. That's what anyone in EP that isn't poor and wants to look good, will actually look like.

Decivre Decivre's picture
Smokeskin wrote:I did an

Smokeskin wrote:
I did an image search for "pig sow" and don't see why the picture of the neopig is a problem. The size doesn't look unrealistic, and humans as a species have unusually large breasts when not breastfeeding, so even if she didn't have babies that from humans might have carried over to neopigs. The male attraction for big breasts could also have carried over to neopigs, and she had them augmented because she wanted to look good.

I think it looks ridiculous too, but obviously her face is more of a problem, with me not being into pigs. If you want to imagine something really ridiculously looking, what if she was actually dressed to impress, in heels, skirt, wearing make up.


The problem is that uplifts generally have a lot of mores pulled from their original genestock, up to and including views of sexual attractiveness (except perhaps with bonobos). They, along with AGI, are the most "alien" things that characters can portray, many of which are only socialized to enough of a degree that they can function within transhuman society. Pigs with boobs seems out of place with that viewpoint of things.

To use a more ludicrous example, how would this dialog be going if there was an octomorph with boobs in the book?

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Decivre wrote:

Decivre wrote:

The problem is that uplifts generally have a lot of mores pulled from their original genestock, up to and including views of sexual attractiveness (except perhaps with bonobos).

So you're saying that neopig females are more attracted to regular male pigs than male neopigs?

Decivre wrote:

They, along with AGI, are the most "alien" things that characters can portray, many of which are only socialized to enough of a degree that they can function within transhuman society. Pigs with boobs seems out of place with that viewpoint of things.

I don't see pigs with boobs as being more out of place than intelligent pigs with hands walking upright tbh.

Decivre wrote:

To use a more ludicrous example, how would this dialog be going if there was an octomorph with boobs in the book?

A lot better, I suspect. We wouldn't be having this discussion. It would be obvious that the uplifting process had resulted in the octomorph acquiring at least parts of human sexual attraction. It would go quite well along the social commentary on the dark sides of capitalism, that the uplifting was done so haphazardly with so little regard for the quality of life for the octomorphs, that they'd find the need to modify themselves with human sexual traits.

I'm reminded of a picture I once saw of a male prison inmate who had crude nipple tattoos on his ass cheeks that made them look like female breasts. If people don't have access to the proper target for their sexual desires, they'll modify what they have.

Decivre Decivre's picture
Smokeskin wrote:So you're

Smokeskin wrote:
So you're saying that neopig females are more attracted to regular male pigs than male neopigs?

No, I'm saying that neopigs likely look at different physical traits in their mates than humans do, some of which they likely share with their pig ancestors.

Much like how human men are attracted to emphasized ass features, but we aren't sexually attracted to baboons despite also having emphasized ass features in females. Right?

Decivre wrote:
I don't see pigs with boobs as being more out of place than intelligent pigs with hands walking upright tbh.

There's at least a functional purpose behind hands and feet. What functional purpose does a half-dozen human-esque permanently-engorged breasts serve?

Smokeskin wrote:
A lot better, I suspect. We wouldn't be having this discussion. It would be obvious that the uplifting process had resulted in the octomorph acquiring at least parts of human sexual attraction. It would go quite well along the social commentary on the dark sides of capitalism, that the uplifting was done so haphazardly with so little regard for the quality of life for the octomorphs, that they'd find the need to modify themselves with human sexual traits.

I'm reminded of a picture I once saw of a male prison inmate who had crude nipple tattoos on his ass cheeks that made them look like female breasts. If people don't have access to the proper target for their sexual desires, they'll modify what they have.


I'm torn by that interpretation. On one hand, it implies a less alien mindset for uplifts, which would probably be far easier for people to get into the mindset for roleplay. On the other hand, it implies uplifts which use humans as a baseline for their sexual attractions, which has more disturbing implications to follow it.

I agree with your latter point, but what would that mean for neopigs? That engorged breasts were added out of necessity for an unusual pig psychology that includes attraction to human-esque breasts, or for them to be attractive to the proper targets of human-esque breasts (ie: humans)?

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
It doesn't really matter if

It doesn't really matter if you think pig-boobs are a good idea. It doesn't even matter if pig boobs actually are a good idea. It just matters if one of the groups who worked years to make bipedal sapient pigs thought pig boobs were a good idea (or the individual uplift thought it was a good idea). I doubt this trait is ubiquitous among all neo-pig morph germ-lines, but I can easily imagine one weird, overworked guy on the uplift team thinking "You know what would be cool? 6-pack boobs!" Heck, there are probably more than a few uplift scientists who went into the profession because of a particular fetish.

Even if pig-boobs weren't standard, I could easily see a sow figuring that since human males seem to like big breasts (being more polite and such), a slight augmentation might help her social standing. She may or may not be right about that, but it is a realistic conclusion to make, especially if you are only an observer of human psychology.

Lorsa Lorsa's picture
You seem to forget that this

You seem to forget that this was a scum barge chemist. Scum are famous for extreme body modifications, and I don't find it at all odd one of them would have a neopig with 6 large boobs in order to freak out all those bioconservatives out there. This exact reaction that you have is probably what she (or he?) was going for anyway.

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jackgraham jackgraham's picture
(No subject)

Sorry for the lack of verisimilitude. Twelve teats would have been more accurate.

J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!
  http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I'm having trouble figuring

I'm having trouble figuring out why the teats are bothering people. Tit's on a pig don't bother me because pigs/neopigs are not part of my sexual interests. You know what grosses me out more than neopig teats? Human fat. Now there's a choice with no relevance to survival or sexual signaling with scary implications for the individual, society, and the practice of medicine.

know what really really bothers me about the illustrations of neopigs? The fact that their heads can't connect to an upright spine that way. Never mind the teats. How about a functioning brainstem? If you're going to speculate about tits and their implications in the game you've probably missed the forest for the tits. Who else is concerned that the illustrator pasted a typical pig head on a typical human body (with extra teats).

It's just an illustration and it's done it's job. Once the artist made the mistake of failing to change the morphology of the head and neck to work on an upright, bipedal body he had to be looking for ways to make it more pig-ish and landed on the only thing left; Teats. It's an easy mistake to make and it's common in both illustration and writing for fantasy depictions for animal/human chimera. I'm certain the artist was looking for an effect but was not thinking in a licentious manner.

Am I shocked! that a neopig scum character 'choose' to have muliple tits? Nope. I'm more shocked that she 'choose' to have a mouth that can't speek human languages or drink through a straw.

It's just an illustration, it's done it's job.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Lorsa Lorsa's picture
I don't understand. Are you

I don't understand. Are you saying human fat has no relevance to survival or sexual signaling? Because it most definitely has. On both accounts. I've been thinking of making a thread to discuss beauty ideals in a transhuman world - maybe we shoiuld?

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DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I don't know if I should be

I don't know if I should be ashamed of myself at having an issue with this neopig, or be relieved that I wasn't the only one who did.

Anyways, the individual does appear to be scum so being offensive might have been one of its goals. If so, then it did its job well... to our expense.

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
And now for something

And now for something completely different. The Jenkins morph is mentioned to have implausibly sized sexual organs. It is said to be the life of certain kind of scum parties. On the other end of the spectrum, the Griefer is obnoxiously loud. Is it compensating for something?... I kid, I kid. We don't need to do this kind of topic again... Seriously. Don't.

As for more stuff I liked in the book, I'm liking that a number skills got some mentionings as to why they worth having, especially for Firewall agents. Many knowledge skills got some pretty thorough explanations that will make it easier to explain to players to as to why they should have them... actually the explanations might have been good enough that they might nab them on their own at the expense of active skills. I know I'm tempted.

Decivre Decivre's picture
Without young, breasts


Without young, breasts largely line up with the stomach.

Let it be said that I'm not against the picture because "animals with bewbs". I just wasn't particularly fond of it because of what I know on swine biology (which is the same reason I disliked the dragonborn). I blame my time working on a farm for this.

Maybe I wouldn't have been so bothered if she had the dependents flaw....

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:I'm having

OneTrikPony wrote:
I'm having trouble figuring out why the teats are bothering people. Tit's on a pig don't bother me because pigs/neopigs are not part of my sexual interests.

I think it is just the tits that bother people. It is like the reaction to any other depiction of sexy women. Some people just find that sort of art demeaning and think that it was there to pander to a male audience. It's obviously a silly idea, since sexy women actually exist in the real world and you find them in all walks of life, from soldiers to lawyers to fast food workers, and presumably such women also exist in EP. Of course combat armor that doesn't cover the vitals is stupid, butthat doesn't mean all women always wear practical clothing.

nick012000 nick012000's picture
Decivre wrote:

Decivre wrote:

Without young, breasts largely line up with the stomach.

Yup. This, along with the human arms and total lack of pig-like proportions were my main problem with the picture. It's basically a six-titted human with a pig's head, and being simply stocky humans with pig's heads is one of the major problems with them. It's like the artist went "Neo-pigs? Orcs are sort of piglike, so I'll just draw an orc with a pig's head." Seriously, look at that picture. Pigs aren't broad, they're deep. If you put a pig up on two legs, and looked at them head on, they'd be like an oval facing you, rather than perpendicular from you like humans are.

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Although I have been largely

Although I have been largely critical to the content of Transhuman and remain so, I must say I found the parts on infomorphs and swarmoids particularly well written, and a treasure trove for playing, running and understanding how those aspects of Eclipse Phase work. I had very happy flashbacks to Panopticon~

Smokeskin wrote:
Some people just find that sort of art demeaning and think that it was there to pander to a male audience. It's obviously a silly idea, since sexy women actually exist in the real world and you find them in all walks of life, from soldiers to lawyers to fast food workers, and presumably such women also exist in EP. Of course combat armor that doesn't cover the vitals is stupid, butthat doesn't mean all women always wear practical clothing.

If it wasn't to pander to a male audience, it would be so disproportionately represented in art. It's true that there exist some women who exercise their right to dress however they bloody want by dressing in a way traditionally considered sexy of their volition, but that doesn't mean that it's not demeaning to disproportionately represent the vast majority of women as dressing that way. The latter is very clearly done largely to satisfy the urges of a male audience.

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

Decivre Decivre's picture
Smokeskin wrote:I think it is

Smokeskin wrote:
I think it is just the tits that bother people. It is like the reaction to any other depiction of sexy women. Some people just find that sort of art demeaning and think that it was there to pander to a male audience. It's obviously a silly idea, since sexy women actually exist in the real world and you find them in all walks of life, from soldiers to lawyers to fast food workers, and presumably such women also exist in EP. Of course combat armor that doesn't cover the vitals is stupid, butthat doesn't mean all women always wear practical clothing.

As a fan of the monstergirl art fad, I disagree with you. I personally am in agreement with a previous statement you made... the standard for appearance is going to be the equivalent of very attractive. But this will also be tailored to culture and species; a Liberian refugee woman is likely to be very full-bodied with broad hips, which would appear "fat" to someone with a European or American sense of attractiveness. In that same regard, a neo-pig would be very attractive... to neo-pigs. And they would have all the physical features necessary to be so.

I think the problem is that many people want uplifts to be less human, more animal. I personally like the alien-ness of both uplifts and AGI, and would rather the setting play that up. Neo-dolphins are creatures that think innately in three dimensions and have no cultural grasp of privacy. Neo-bonobos are innately matriarchal, bisexual, and use sex the same way people use handshakes and greetings. Neo-octopi are solitary problem-solvers with a cultural acceptance of wandering hands and predator instincts. These are the things that make these creatures so interesting to me, the things that set them apart from us humans.

So when it comes to appearance, I have the same view of things. I'm fine with quadrupeds being given the power to walk upright, and having their forepaws/hooves replaced with hands. I'm fine with bird uplifts being given manipulator fingers on their wings and being given muscular esophagi. These things make sense in the context of making them functional "people", rather than functional "humans". Not so much with human sexual characteristics.

And this isn't something specific to breasts. I would be just as put off by a whale with body-builder arms, an octopus with flowing blond hair, and a parrot with a porn-star dong.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Smokeskin wrote:

Smokeskin wrote:

I think it is just the tits that bother people.

Do not assume that this is an extension of any puritanical views I might hold. I am probably one of the more sexually liberal people on these forums, at the least I am up there. I do not have an issue with “OMG boobs!”. The piece on page 201 is quite a bit more explicit, and I think it fits in perfectly.

My issue is that the Neo-Pig piece feels gauche, and silly (in a bad way), and not at all how I think the Neo-Pigs should be represented. It is literally just a human with a pig head stuck on, which looks like it could easily be a mask, and some copy-pasted teats stuck on. It isn't even that is a particularly bad piece (although I do think it is kind of approaching what I would call 'bad'). It is just surrounded by much better work that makes it stand out. The Hidden Concern Assassin looks amazing. The Flexbot Traceur is kickass. The Dig Ops Specialist is literally one of my favourite pieces in all the books.

And when I say that it looks silly, don't assume that I am for Super Serious Sci-Fi Only. The Argonaut Xenolinguist is kind of silly, but, in my opinion, in a technically proficient manner. It looks good. I honestly cannot say the same of the Neo-Pig. It just stands out as the worst of the new example characters, and by a fairly wide margin. Which I know sounds harsh, but it is what it is.

I'm actually surprised that the T&A Catsuit Girl hasn't gotten more attention, what with the discussion the Martian Ranger from Sunward provoked.

-

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:I'm

CodeBreaker wrote:
I'm actually surprised that the T&A Catsuit Girl hasn't gotten more attention, what with the discussion the Martian Ranger from Sunward provoked.

I find T&A catsuit girl infuriating, because she's blatant pandering. Her pose is terrible, the piece of art serves clearly to highlight her sexually rather than what she's actually doing (there's no proper background or flow of action that makes sense), her breasts are anatomically misplaced (as far as I can tell, her right breast is attached to the centre of her torso...), and her attire is pretty clearly supposed to be a latex catsuit, a corset and a pair of tall boots; if the angle of the image was a little different, I'd have bet all my rep we could tell she was wearing high heeled boots.

I just find the badly drawn neo-pig even more infuriating, because, as you say, it's gauche. And badly drawn. Perhaps because I've been desensitized by thousands of images of anatomically warped women in skintight clothing, while this is the first time I've seen a six-breasted human-pig.

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

Buio Buio's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:I find T&A

LatwPIAT wrote:
I find T&A catsuit girl infuriating...
I just find the badly drawn neo-pig even more infuriating...

Why get that angry over those? Not the best art, but it's just two pieces in the book that has a lot of great art. I would just get mildly annoyed then forget about them.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:

LatwPIAT wrote:

If it wasn't to pander to a male audience, it would be so disproportionately represented in art. It's true that there exist some women who exercise their right to dress however they bloody want by dressing in a way traditionally considered sexy of their volition, but that doesn't mean that it's not demeaning to disproportionately represent the vast majority of women as dressing that way. The latter is very clearly done largely to satisfy the urges of a male audience.

The women in EP art are a lot less sexy than the women I see in real life, so I don't know what you're talking about. But this is a rich neighborhood so I guess there could be a selection effect at work.

And aren't people in EP supposed to be happier, more socially adept and more energetic than current humans? Wouldn't that make them sexier? I think I'm much happier in my relationship because I try to look good for my wife by lifting weights and drinking protein shakes, getting the sort of clothes and haircut she likes, doing the work around the house that she wants done and other favors, getting her gifts etc., and she in turn does the things I like. Being self-centered and lazy with your appearance and what you do for your partner doesn't make anyone happy. The more you give the more you'll get.

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
JFC! are we stiiiiiil talking

JFC! are we stiiiiiil talking about titties? ARRRGH! I'd say getthefuqoverit but I feel I need to defend the pic on p82.

HOW does the pic on p.82 remotely qualify as a T&A piece? I say that's a ridiculous assertion, so (sorry Codebreaker, much respect otherwise), I am about to ridicule.

1. This is Classic comic book art and posing. If spiderman had been posed in the place of the female no one would be bitching about it. Batman, Wolverine, wonderwoman, spiderwoman, ALL of the XMEN, All of the JLA except superman, have been depicted in very similar action poses.

The picture tells a great story by using a few tricks; the two figures are posed in a triangular composition over the radial composition of the back ground this creates a tension between the figures and the background that lets the action of the figures stand out. They both violate and match the background which highlights the single place where the main figure interacts with the background.

On top of this radial/triangular composition the focal points of the composition are linear. This draws the eye along the line of action in a specific order, further violating the radial composition and creating tension. This line of action runs from top left to bottom right; buttocks, face, muzzle blast, explosion, purple blades. Furthermore the hard lines and bright highlites are on the primary character while the second figure and background are blurred by her speed. Putting the focus on the primary character draws the viewer along with her and allows the artist to create a kinetic impression while keeping the primary figure in focus.

Thus a story is told; The agile primary figure flips down the tunnel right past the blades of her antagonist before he can strike. She fires her weapon, destroying some of his gear while his mighty swing pulls him off balance.

2. "Catsuits" in space will be common because they are functional. Any space suit is a pressure suit. In low pressure environments you need pressure or your biomorph gets the bends and explosive flatulence. This can be provided by a bubble of compressed gas (like current, highly immobile, space suits) or it can be one of the mechanical pressure suits currently being prototyped at MIT, NASA and the ESA. If my job involvs flipping down a coridor I'm probably going to choose the mechanical type.

Can we now stop being offended by depictions of aspects of the female form? PLEASE? It's embarrassing me, and I'm trying to get women involved in my EP games.

http://mvl.mit.edu/EVA/biosuit/biosuit_images/Newman_biosuit.jpg
http://mvl.mit.edu/EVA/biosuit/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_activity_suit

[edit] there is one problem with the picture and it's a problem with the compositing where the second figures leg has been cut off. It's a little lazy and I would have fixed it but there are only so many hours before a deadline. It was accepted by the art director so it's a win for the artist. Blame the editor.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

branford branford's picture
Lorsa wrote:I don't

Lorsa wrote:
I don't understand. Are you saying human fat has no relevance to survival or sexual signaling? Because it most definitely has. On both accounts. I've been thinking of making a thread to discuss beauty ideals in a transhuman world - maybe we shoiuld?

My god, that way lies madness . . . :)

jackgraham jackgraham's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:1. This is

OneTrikPony wrote:
1. This is Classic comic book art and posing. If spiderman had been posed in the place of the female no one would be bitching about it. Batman, Wolverine, wonderwoman, spiderwoman, ALL of the XMEN, All of the JLA except superman, have been depicted in very similar action poses.

We debated this illo a good deal. The artist swayed us by sending us like 10 pictures of Spiderman & other male heroes in more or less the exact same pose.

As to Ms. Piggy, y'all might be interested in seeing a bit of what our process looks like. We start out with art notes. Here are the ones I wrote for that piece (yeah, like the Suryas, I accept full responsibility for this one).

4. Scum Barge Chemist Background: Brinker Faction: Scum Morph: Hyperpig Key Augmentations: Enhanced Smell, Extra Limbs, Mental Speed Key Skills: Academics (Chemistry), Profession (Chemical Engineering) "The bacon I'm eating? No, it's not weird at all. It's human bacon. Eat up, long pig."

Illustration: A humanoid pig in a white bodysuit with medical markings. Its build is somewhat delicate, with rows of mammaries in front, suggesting that it might be female. Its ears and nose are pierced, and exposed skin is heavily tattooed. Some of the tattooing extends to the bodysuit – dotted lines showing where cuts of meat would be on an actual pig. It's wearing a fair amount of equipment – stuff appropriate to a chemist – and has two long, spidery cyberlimbs extending from its shoulders. It should also have some type of sidearm; this is an anarchist pig, after all. No tusks (the girls don't have 'em). She's got mental adaptations for extremely fast thinking, so if you want, give her a raised ridge on her cranium where exposed blood vessels act as a heat sink.

So in my writer-brain, she starts out as Irken Conjoiner Ironic High-on-All-the-Drugs Pig. Sometimes (as with the Salamander morph in Sunward, or Wernecke's illos in Glory), the artist makes me fucking SQUEEEE with their seemingly telepathic rendition of exactly what I had in my head. Other times (Martian Ranger), I'm left wondering if the result couldn't have been better. But at the end of the day, every time we write art notes, it's kind of a trust fall. The artists are our collaborators, and for what we pay them, we expect a small amount of give & take regarding the final product. Most of the time we can get a piece to where we want it to be without asking too much of the artist and without blowing our deadline. In an ideal world, this would always happen.

So I am torn on my dear Scum Barge Chemist. She was so beautiful/ugly in my head, weird-ass porcine teats & all. I'm pleased to a small extent by the quite visceral reactions she's raised in this & other forums. That was very much my intention. But I say this while acknowledging the technical faults of the illo, which I think might've been resolved if we'd had more in the way of time/money to work with the artist on improving the piece.

I hope that some of you use her in your campaigns, and that your own mental image of her is fucked up and wonderful.

J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!
  http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham

Decivre Decivre's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:JFC! are we

OneTrikPony wrote:
JFC! are we stiiiiiil talking about titties? ARRRGH! I'd say getthefuqoverit but I feel I need to defend the pic on p82.

I've been over it. It's unreasonable to assume that any demands could force a change in art at this point, whether the picture be good or bad. I just figured that I could levy my opinion on it in the General thread for the book. I'll find some justification for it at some point. Maybe she's the kinky sort that's more into humans than other neo-pigs (she is a hedonist). Maybe it was a reaction to a drug batch that contained way too much estrogen. Maybe she's a reverse-furry. Whatever the case, the art is there. I can still dislike it.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
jackgraham wrote:So I am torn

jackgraham wrote:
So I am torn on my dear Scum Barge Chemist. She was so beautiful/ugly in my head, weird-ass porcine teats & all. I'm pleased to a small extent by the quite visceral reactions she's raised in this & other forums. That was very much my intention. But I say this while acknowledging the technical faults of the illo, which I think might've been resolved if we'd had more in the way of time/money to work with the artist on improving the piece.

I hope that some of you use her in your campaigns, and that your own mental image of her is fucked up and wonderful.

I think it worked out great. You crossed into bestiality territory, and a lot of people just went "my yuck factor just got triggered subconsciously, quick brain, find a rationalisation for my emotion: Ehm, artist got it wrong, animals shouldn't have human sexual traits", instead of "wow there's some fucked up shit in the setting".

You know, if you really want to hit home the themes of social oppression and bias, that's probably the way to go. AGI and synthmorph stigma is something that enlightened players can't relate to, but uplift and neotenic sexuality could get even the most liberal minded person to feel revulsion. One thing is fighting for freedom to do things you agree with - it is quite another to find for freedom for things you find disgusting.

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
A purely technical comment:

A purely technical comment: The Transhuman PDF is sloooooooow. Both on my PC and iPad it takes forever for it to load, and on the iPad flipping pages is close to unbearable. It is MUCH worse than it is on other PDF's of similar or larger size.

I really think you should try to track down the problem and release a new version.

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Smokeskin wrote:A purely

Smokeskin wrote:
A purely technical comment: The Transhuman PDF is sloooooooow. Both on my PC and iPad it takes forever for it to load, and on the iPad flipping pages is close to unbearable. It is MUCH worse than it is on other PDF's of similar or larger size.

I really think you should try to track down the problem and release a new version.

The resolution of the background image makes redrawing when flipping or scrolling reaaaally slow on smaller processors. You can turn off the bacground image in the layers options and it won't load much better but it will scroll faster. You can get more speed by turning off the other page elements and the art too.

[edit] And also; MAD KUDOS to Adam for including the layers feature and [working] hyperlinks in the index. This makes PS+ books sooo much nicer than any of my Paizo books.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Decivre Decivre's picture
Smokeskin wrote:I think it

Smokeskin wrote:
I think it worked out great. You crossed into bestiality territory, and a lot of people just went "my yuck factor just got triggered subconsciously, quick brain, find a rationalisation for my emotion: Ehm, artist got it wrong, animals shouldn't have human sexual traits", instead of "wow there's some fucked up shit in the setting".

I think you're blowing the whole thing out of proportion. A cursory pass through this entire thread revealed just three people expressing distaste for the picture... myself, Codebreaker, and nick012000. And then we had the gall to use such colorful phrases as "ick", "off-putting", or "my least favourite picture". Yet somehow this is being described as if it were Lillun levels of controversial. That's hyperbole at best, and you seem to be mostly offended that there are more than two people who find this to be their least favorite picture in the book. Would I have an anti-synthmorph bias if I wouldn't have been fond of a random robot picture? I wasn't fond of the chapter illustration in Gatecrashing with the green Pandora gate... am I horrified by the color green, or sexually offended by green portals?

You've got three people that aren't fond of the picture. You don't have an angry mob demanding the annihilation of the book.

Smokeskin wrote:
You know, if you really want to hit home the themes of social oppression and bias, that's probably the way to go. AGI and synthmorph stigma is something that enlightened players can't relate to, but uplift and neotenic sexuality could get even the most liberal minded person to feel revulsion. One thing is fighting for freedom to do things you agree with - it is quite another to find for freedom for things you find disgusting.

Actually, I'm okay with these things. There hasn't really been an illustration of the neo-bonobo yet, and I'd much rather the morph be sexualized in its depiction. It makes a lot of sense that it would be. I might actually be less fond of a neo-bonobo depicted otherwise. And you won't find any objections from me about the neotenic morph being used in a sexualized depiction either. I expect this sort of thing in the setting... I am the guy who inferred the invention of rape AI in another thread, after all.

But you know what would be off-putting to me? A neo-bonobo with a cloaca. Or a neotenic laying eggs. Or a robot crapping babies while a unicorn has sex with a massive flower during a rendition of the Star Spangled banner by a three-headed Gary Busey clone that is getting a blowjob from a vacuum cleaner with boobs.

I guess that makes me a prude.

OneTrikPony wrote:
The resolution of the background image makes redrawing when flipping or scrolling reaaaally slow on smaller processors. You can turn off the bacground image in the layers options and it won't load much better but it will scroll faster. You can get more speed by turning off the other page elements and the art too.

I've been thinking about making stripped versions of the sourcebooks, as there has been a lot of good reaction to the stripped corebook, and even my players have been asking me why I don't strip at least Gatecrashing (which apparently had similar slow-loading problems... I guess the more art you add, the slower these things get). I'll probably get around to it later this week.

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.

Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.

LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:HOW does

OneTrikPony wrote:
HOW does the pic on p.82 remotely qualify as a T&A piece?

The first qualifier for the image on p. 82 being a T&A piece is that it's drawn to show off tits and ass. The lines and lighting draw attention to the her butt (which is oddly large), and she has an unnaturally twisted torso in order to show off her breast (yet again, oddly large) which is anatomically misplaced.

Oh, and she's wearing a shiny catsuit with a corset over it. A corset! That's the kind of thing you'll only find in erotic latex photography.

So we have a female character in an unnatural pose that's made to show off both her breasts and butt, while wearing an outfit that belongs in a fetish club or porn magazine. That's classic T&A.

OneTrikPony wrote:
Can we now stop being offended by depictions of aspects of the female form? PLEASE? It's embarrassing me

Why are you embarrassed? What about other people making complaints about sexism embarrasses you?

@-rep +2
C-rep +1

Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
LatwPIAT wrote:OneTrikPony

LatwPIAT wrote:

OneTrikPony wrote:
Can we now stop being offended by depictions of aspects of the female form? PLEASE? It's embarrassing me

Why are you embarrassed? What about other people making complaints about sexism embarrasses you?

Look, you're not complaining about sexism. You're going off on some hardcore feminismistic tangent where you're the one stigmatizing people. You're making a problem of normal stuff, and when it comes to actually sexy women, you're downright biased against them as well as the men that like that. What you're saying, if the same was said about the men at a gay pride, the person uttering would be labelled a homophobe instantly, and rightly so. You're the same.

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